213 replies to this topic

[Inflatable Fish]

Just wanted to share my thoughts on something I've observed in game lately.

See, I only ever run medium mechs. Two hunchbros and a centurion, to be precise. And it's extremely, and I mean extremely rare that I see more than one other medium mech in a match, if at all. These days, everyone and their pet chinchilla seems to be running either assault mechs, poptarting/AC-toting heavies, or lightweights, necessarily with ecm for more annoyance.

Medium mechs are supposed to be the brawling sidekicks to the heaviest bodies out there, right? Medium-to-short range, decent mobility and survivability, enough firepower to pull their own weight. The problem is, the current environment actually penalises medium mech pilots. Let's see what you're faced with when you jump behind the wheel of your trusty hunchbro:

1. The abundance of sniper builds and their nigh-absurd effectiveness at *any* range (point-blank er ppc/gauss rifle salvo? no problem!) means that not only do you have to plod your way through muddy hell to get into fighting range where you actually start to matter, you're still in the same danger, if not greater, of catching 40+ damage alphas to the face repeatedly when you get there, despite your supposed superior mobility. And since the snipers are almost exclusively heavies and assaults, you're outarmoured and outgunned anyway!

2. Ballistic builds (especially my pet peeve, the dual AC/20 jagermech) who can core you in one salvo and kill in the next (and fully armoured centurion torso be damned, they don't care) p. much render you obsolete at ranges you should theoretically be the master of. Again, your mobility is of limited value here as most of the time, even with an XL300 engine, you can't outrun their turning speed, and all they need to tear you down is a few seconds.

3. Since everyone else is happily camping ridges and circlejerking with long-range weaponry, you can p. much forget about any support when you close in with the enemy. Noone but another medium mech will ever have your back, they're too busy scanning the opposite ridges waiting for a clear shot.

Now just to be clear, I don't consider myself a bad player. I can use cover fairly well to hide from snipers, I pick my battles as much as I can, and I can dish out considerable damage despite the above hindrances. I've pulled off matches with over 800 damage done with both hunchbros and the centurion.

But all the time, I keep getting the feeling that the niche my favourite weight class was supposedly designed for got erased somewhere along the way. Noone wants to play medium mechs anymore, because most of the time they just don't fit in.

Well, thanks for listening to this little rant of mine. I'm fairly sure I'm not the first one to mention it, but I needed to vent.

[Alistair Winter]

Good first post.

[stjobe]

Yeah, the mediums are in a rough spot right now. The lights aren't all that much better off either, but they can at least justify running off to cap (and most chassis are capable of ECM as well, which helps a lot).

I've pretty much exclusively run lights (Commandos and Spiders) and mediums (Centurions) since I started playing in August, so I've seen both lights and mediums get worse and worse - or rather heavies and assaults get better and better. Heavies and Assaults should *need* mediums and lights, but they don't; they're completely self-sufficient, being as effective against other heavy 'mechs as against lights, leaving lights and mediums pointless.

It's a bad trend, and I don't really see how to change it without re-writing large parts of the game (the heat system), or re-introducing something many people hated; Repair and Rearm.

In the BattleTech of my teens, there were supposed to be about 40% mediums, 30% lights, 20% heavies, and 10% assaults - in MWO it's the same ratios, but the order is almost reversed; it seems to me there's about 40% assaults, 30% heavies, 20% mediums, and 10% lights.

I don't like it.

[Batch1972]

Hey Fish,

Good post. It's a shame the current forum layout will mean it's missed by most people since it's a debate that needs to be had.

My friend and I are mad BT fans and have really been playing since the game went to open beta (seems years ago!)but we are both reaching the conclusion that design decisions and un-intended patch nerfs/buffs are making the game rather dull.

There needs to be some sort of way to form mixed lances - whether that's by class or by tonnage but I get the feeling that there are just no enough players for it to work - especially in the asia-pac region.

To my mind I think they need to look at the following areas - since this is still a beta that could make substantial changes...

1. Mechbay
People think the clans are about more pew pew - they're not. The key change was the Omni-mech. The concept that you had a mech shell that could be customized. That's why 3050 had 16 Omnimech vs the dozens of IS mechs. There needs to be a way to limit the changes made to a mech - that then encourages different load-outs by mech design - want lrms take a treb, want lasers, a centurion etc. I would like to see heavy / light slots.

2. Repair & Rearm
It used to act as a limiter.. Take an xl engine out and lose... lose half your cash, want gauss, ac20, there goes the rest..

3. Clans
They can't balance the IS, how the hell can they add the clans and balance it successfully. If they had looked at (1), the difference could have been the customization potential with weapons damage/weight slightly tweaked. TBH, I really don't know what the fuss is all about with the clans - I think that the game was at it's best in 3025. It would have been perfect if this had been set during the war of 3039.

4. Community split
EU & US servers, 8man vs lone wolf, 3rd person vs 1st person. The player base -which tbh isn't huge is being constantly fragmented making elo harder and harder. As an Oz player, if they introduce EU/US servers, I'll quit since it will be a choice between better ping (US) or more players (EU). If EVE can cope with a single server MWO can.

5. Stability/Bugs
Yes I know it still beta in PGI's eyes (I would disagree after forking out cash however) but stability/bugs needs to be fixed. Move resources, hire people, sack people but to have major bugs for months on end isn't good enough

6. Maps
I know they are ramping the release of maps but there needs to be a lot more to stop people getting stale. How is CW going to work with 10 maps... needs far more

I want this game to succeed but the current state and future direction is starting to concern me

My rant over

Edited by Batch1972, 11 May 2013 - 03:51 PM.

[SmoothCriminal]

I feel your pain, I used to love my cents but they don't leave the hanger at the moment. Best bet? Bring a long ranged weapon and pop away around your team, then get ready to support any heavies that decide today is their lucky day and start to close.

The best I do is when some fatlass/highlander is having his moment and I sit behind him and plough away with the ac20.

[ivr56]

I've been running Trebchet's (All of em) and a Hunchback 4G for the past 2 months or so as my main go tos. I can echo some of this.
Running Medium's in Assault solo dropping. I don't bother it is just not worth it in the current Meta. Team drops it helps to a extent as Mediums are much better coordinated with someone who will talk and help you out.

Conquest however I can drop solo all day long and maintain DMG equal or more then heavy/assault mechs. If you want to enjoy Medium's run in Conquest

[5th Fedcom Rat]

I totally agree with your post, however:

The Centurion can frequently beat double ac20 jager due to the Cent's (bugged? broken?) ability to absorb repeated volleys that would destroy any other mech, while focusing on one of the jager's side torsos. Also, Cent Ds and YLW's can be 100+ kph fast. When SRMs were strong, Cents were some of the most OP mechs in the game due to their hitboxes. If SRMs get good again...

The Treb meanwhile can use its jump jets to good effect, even poptarting if necessary. And some models can go as fast as a light mech, allowing them to hunt lights or harass larger mechs effectively.

Cicada is kind of a poor man's light due to the insanely huge center torso hitbox, but it can be very very fast at least and the extra 5 tons on a jenner allows it to carry slightly more heatsinks for longer sustained laser fire.

Hunchback is the only really really lame duck medium mech right now. No jump jets and barely any faster than a cataphract, with inferior armor and firepower. There's really no good reason to take one nowdays, even though I do like the look of the mech and am still working on mastering mine.

.

Edited by 5th Fedcom Rat, 11 May 2013 - 04:37 PM.

[drinniol]

The hunchie suffers from being slow. I think if they enabled a higher speed it would sort itself out but then again the BT fanatics would probably have a fit.

You also have to remember that there are only 4 mediums in MWO at the moment, compared to 140 or so in BT. You have to really play to the strengths of the mediums currently available.

Batch - MWO does not have a single server structure like EVE - each map is hosted on a separate dedicated server. This constant fragmentation you allude to is not constant at all - it's all in the future. Plus, I'm in WA so I bet I get worse ping than you and HSR still works perfectly. Repair & Rearm was stupid as people just dropped with 75% armour and ammo.


Mr I. Fish - at the beginning of a match, do you ask the simple question 'Who is a brawler?'?

You can see the enemy's equipment, try calling target priority. A lot of players are just waiting for someone to take initiative and will happily follow.

[Nauht]

Heavies and assaults DO need mediums and lights -

- to complete the objectives, to defend the base, to harass the enemy.

They are not meant to take on heavies let alone assaults. This has always been in lore and its reflected here. It BT weight matters.
Where would the balance be if a medium can go toe to toe with a heavy? They should be shredded.

Play smart, use the bigger mechs as shields, you should be moving to cover or blatantly running behind a heavy as soon as you take one round. And most definitely you shouldn't be first on the scene.

I play a SP and think that the HB needs to be up there with the cent in terms of engine capacity but feels that that's about all that's needed.

[Daneiel]

Two great posts by OP and Batch1972 - sadly no one cares about the mediums , few of us still trying run mediums from time to time , but that only incrase our pain , at that stage the game become one poptarting snip fest nothing more . If PGI don't take mesures to return RnR or include hardpoint size and heat penalty the game we stay at that stage and even will become worst.

P.S. Before someone bring that limiting the customisation will kill IS in favor for clan mechs - forget it , they also can be limited , not as HPS but as omni-pod weight limit .

[Nauht]

Neverfar, on 11 May 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

I like this post and am very sympathetic to your plight.

I'm expecting a lot of bloat-boaters (and people roleplaying as non-bloat-boaters) to say to use skill™ and tactics™ dismissively in the responses, though.


Why "harass" when bringing yet another bloat boat can "harass" for a lot more damage and further solidify the British musket line?

It's cute to state how tactically brilliant you can be in a metagame-mediocre mech, but surprise, pal: you're offering a tertiary role at best to what is supposed to be a freely-chosen slot in the game.

Nowhere in MWO does it say: "if you choose this size class of mech you should be terrified of otherwise identical players who had the brilliance to choose more guns at longer range, and shame on you if you try to actually kill them."

No one wants to be your waterboy, your powder monkey, or your squire.

Of course not and you shouldn't rely on your teammates at all. You should be using them blatantly. Get behind that Atlas, run to cover. There is no way a medium should be taking on an atlas solo, current meta or not.

In fact I'd much rather fight a sniper mech in my SP than a brawler. Brawler spec'd heavies hurt waaay more than snipers.

Read the lore, you claim to be a BT fan, you should know they write about facing a heavy or assault with fear, in fact MW pilots won't try to take on a heavier weight class.

Anyway put lore aside - so you're advocating that a medium SHOULD be able to take on heavy solo and come out on top? Even a brawler spec'd close range brawler? C'mon surely you're not that blinded by your rhetoric to see the balance issue there.
We all know you hate the current meta but get over it. See the forest with this issue.

I agree with the more experienced treb/cent drivers. The HB does need an engine upgrade but that's about it.

[Farpenoodle]

Neverfar, on 11 May 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

No one wants to be your waterboy, your powder monkey, or your squire.

You're already assuming he pilots a heavy/assault PPC boat when he gave no indication in his post. What if he (like me) pilots mediums predominantly and finds a lot of success in the harasser role?

The advantage of mediums is they can outpace most mechs on the field and carry enough firepower to seriously hurt a mech who's distracted.. Use cover to get to their flanks. Hit them enough to get their attention, and fade before he realistically can get a good shot on you. Congrats, he and whoever else you shot at is now distracted and cannot focus all his attention on the main front. Allowing your own team bring more fire to bear on the enemy team than the enemy can on yours.

[Nauht]

daneiel varna, on 11 May 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

Two great posts by OP and Batch1972 - sadly no one cares about the mediums , few of us still trying run mediums from time to time , but that only incrase our pain , at that stage the game become one poptarting snip fest nothing more . If PGI don't take mesures to return RnR or include hardpoint size and heat penalty the game we stay at that stage and even will become worst.

P.S. Before someone bring that limiting the customisation will kill IS in favor for clan mechs - forget it , they also can be limited , not as HPS but as omni-pod weight limit .

If they did implement RnR, they'd have to do it properly and not 75% like the last joke attempt. It has to be 100% RnR with increased rewards to compensate.

Be careful with hardpoints, be it size limited or something else. Everyone talks about limiting the big boys but don't realise that with that same logic lights and mediums would be restricted as well.

[MonkeyCheese]

My best medium mech is my aws-9m and my cicada is considered a light.

[YueFei]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 11 May 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

I totally agree with your post, however:

The Centurion can frequently beat double ac20 jager due to the Cent's (bugged? broken?) ability to absorb repeated volleys that would destroy any other mech, while focusing on one of the jager's side torsos. Also, Cent Ds and YLW's can be 100+ kph fast.

The Centurion has a really skinny Center Torso, which is how it often lives so long. Hits to the side torso hitbox after the side torso is destroyed will transfer that damage to the Center Torso, but at a reduced percentage.

A really good Centurion pilot can shield their torso with the arms until getting into a heavy's rear arc. Hit hard, and then as the heavy mech reverses to get back into firing arc, the Centurion pilot is shielding with his arms / side torso again.

[Farpenoodle]

MonkeyCheese, on 11 May 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

My best medium mech is my aws-9m and my cicada is considered a light.

I actually laughed. *clap clap*

[Nauht]

YueFei, on 11 May 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

The Centurion has a really skinny Center Torso, which is how it often lives so long. Hits to the side torso hitbox after the side torso is destroyed will transfer that damage to the Center Torso, but at a reduced percentage.

A really good Centurion pilot can shield their torso with the arms until getting into a heavy's rear arc. Hit hard, and then as the heavy mech reverses to get back into firing arc, the Centurion pilot is shielding with his arms / side torso again.

Zombie spec'd cents are a pita to take on. That's why with all cents I go for the legs now.

[drinniol]

Neverfar, on 11 May 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

Nowhere in MWO does it say: "if you choose this size class of mech you should be terrified of otherwise identical players who had the brilliance to choose more guns at longer range, and shame on you if you try to actually kill them."

Common sense says that

[Daneiel]

Nauht, on 11 May 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

If they did implement RnR, they'd have to do it properly and not 75% like the last joke attempt. It has to be 100% RnR with increased rewards to compensate.

Be careful with hardpoints, be it size limited or something else. Everyone talks about limiting the big boys but don't realise that with that same logic lights and mediums would be restricted as well.

Exactly - it was a joke with that 75% from PGI - i am completely agree with you -> 100% repair from the player - that will solve the insane loadouts to some accepable level.
the lights and mediums will not suffer so much , but at that way we will not see 6 PPCs Stalkers or 3PPCs+G.Rifle on Highlanders - they will be hit mostly from HPS . Boating is the biggest problem at that point and no matter what way PGI will find to solve it , it must be done as fast as posible.The boating is the biggest killer of the mediums at that point - DMG done in AS from these boats are enough to make one medium useless for the rest of the game if its not destroyed at the first alfa.

Edited by daneiel varna, 11 May 2013 - 04:56 PM.

[Squidy]

Inflatable Fish, on 11 May 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Medium mechs are supposed to be the brawling sidekicks to the heaviest bodies out there, right? Medium-to-short range,

Add me and I'll be your Atlas Brawling buddy

Edited by Squidy, 11 May 2013 - 04:54 PM.