213 replies to this topic

[Braggart]

Trauglodyte, on 15 May 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

You know, I had something really nice written out and I decided otherwise. Until PGI applies tonnage limitations or weight class number limitations on drops, nothing is going to change. Even adding some quality of life benefits to the mechs won't help fix your perceived inadequacies with the weight class. On top of that, you can still complain that a 55 tonner is better then a 45 tonner. When is it going to end? The answer is it won't because malcontents like you just whine insessently cause the game isn't falling in line with how you want it to be. Assault drivers don't complain because they can't scout. Light drivers don't complain because they can't withstand an Assault barrage. Mech drivers that want energy/ballistics/missiles can't complain that they don't have them when they've chosen the mech chassis/variant that doesn't carry them. You have been given the tool box with which to be successful within the limitations of the design. If that isn't enough for you, stop playing them. Other people are more than successful with them. That you can't speaks more about your inability to get the most out of the mech or perhaps poor designs that you're using then the mechs themselves.

I have tried to help. And I have explained where your niche is. To that end, I feel the frustration. I drive Cicadas, Dragons, and Awesomes. I am always handicapped by a lack of tonnage when it comes to the heavier chassis in my weight class. But I make them work because I understand the intent and I maximize the capabilities within that intent. When I don't, I get smashed and that is the price to be paid for making mistakes.

Everyone can do well in a medium once in a while. A great game in a medium is an average game in my Light/assault/Heavy mechs.

its a simple fact that Mediums do nothing great. They do everything meh, and because of that Meh, they do not outclass anyone at any time. If you want fast and harass, you go light, if you want reasonable speed and good firepower & armor, you go heavy. If you want more weapons than any other class and to take a larger beating than any other class, you take an assault.

If you want to be a crappy scout/capper/harasser, you take a medium. If you want to be a weak brawler, you take a medium, if you want carry very limited firepower and no means to have a decent alpha that everything heavier than you can manage, you take a medium. If want to get blown away in a single volley from an enemy, you take a medium. I could keep going on. The fact is that the medium is always at a disadvantage when not fighting a medium. Against equally skilled opponents, the medium is a waste.

The strengths of the medium are NONE. I know this because i started with them for the longest time, then I figure meh ill try an assault, and suddenly the game became easy. It was crazy. All that time piloting my hunches, and cents, I thought that this was how the game was for everyone, busting your *** earning every point of damage I delivered having to out think and work my opponent. My mind was blown when i moved past Medium mechs, I bought an Awesome, and instantly the game felt like easy mode. Then I bought myself a cicada, and witnessed just how superior that guy is when it comes to flanking and fighting lights. I despise mentioning using the Cent, because something is wrong with that mech, the beating it can take has got to be a bug. If it werent for piloting Hunches and Trenches, And my only experience was the cent, I would say mediums are all right.

Edited by Braggart, 15 May 2013 - 01:40 PM.

[Swiffllama]

Braggart, on 15 May 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

Everyone can do well in a medium once in a while. A great game in a medium is an average game in my Light/assault/Heavy mechs.

its a simple fact that Mediums do nothing great. They do everything meh, and because of that Meh, they do not outclass anyone at any time. If you want fast and harass, you go light, if you want reasonable speed and good firepower & armor, you go heavy. If you want more weapons than any other class and to take a larger beating than any other class, you take an assault.

If you want to be a crappy scout/capper/harasser, you take a medium. If you want to be a weak brawler, you take a medium, if you want carry very limited firepower and no means to have a decent alpha that everything heavier than you can manage, you take a medium. If want to get blown away in a single volley from an enemy, you take a medium. I could keep going on. The fact is that the medium is always at a disadvantage when not fighting a medium. Against equally skilled opponents, the medium is a waste.

The strengths of the medium are NONE. I know this because i started with them for the longest time, then I figure meh ill try an assault, and suddenly the game became easy. It was crazy. All that time piloting my hunches, and cents, I thought that this was how the game was for everyone, busting your *** earning every point of damage I delivered having to out think and work my opponent. My mind was blown when i moved past Medium mechs, I bought an Awesome, and instantly the game felt like easy mode. Then I bought myself a cicada, and witnessed just how superior that guy is when it comes to flanking and fighting lights. I despise mentioning using the Cent, because something is wrong with that mech, the beating it can take has got to be a bug. If it werent for piloting Hunches and Trenches, And my only experience was the cent, I would say mediums are all right.

Well, that says it all. You wanted the easy button. You obviously don't have the mentality to be a hardcore medium pilot. I average 600+ dmg a game. And I work my tail off for it every match and do it with 52 front CT armor and a big *** chip on my shoulder. And guess what, that's enjoyable to me. I want to test my skill every time I play. There is nothing more enjoyable than taking down an Atlas on my own in my 4SP. Do I occasionally get a match with only 200-300 dmg. Sure, but it's usually because I was doing something stupid and deserved it. I have never been one shot in my 4SP. EVER! I have never been taken down by a lone light mech. And Dragon's have really big tasty center torsos that can be hit from around a corner by a blind one legged man with only 3 fingers on his right hand. Every build and every mech in this game has a counter. Finding that and exploiting it while protecting your own is half the fun. But hey, take that easy button if that is what you want.

[aniviron]

Trauglodyte, on 15 May 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

Assault drivers don't complain because they can't scout.

Not really going to get into the meat of the argument here, but just wanted to say that the reason assaults don't complain about not being able to scout is because scouting is a worthless non-role in this game right now. You more or less always know from where your opponents are coming (they have two possible routes. Did you run into them? Easy answers.) I keep hearing about all these great roles for mediums (hide behind the atlas and shoot at people! Wait, every mech does that well, and an atlas hiding behind an atlas does it the best) but none of them are actually important the way the game is balanced right now. Nothing matters except the ability to shoot people as quickly and as often as possible.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

aniviron, on 15 May 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

Not really going to get into the meat of the argument here, but just wanted to say that the reason assaults don't complain about not being able to scout is because scouting is a worthless non-role in this game right now. You more or less always know from where your opponents are coming (they have two possible routes. Did you run into them? Easy answers.) I keep hearing about all these great roles for mediums (hide behind the atlas and shoot at people! Wait, every mech does that well, and an atlas hiding behind an atlas does it the best) but none of them are actually important the way the game is balanced right now. Nothing matters except the ability to shoot people as quickly and as often as possible.

aniviron, on 15 May 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

Not really going to get into the meat of the argument here, but just wanted to say that the reason assaults don't complain about not being able to scout is because scouting is a worthless non-role in this game right now. You more or less always know from where your opponents are coming (they have two possible routes. Did you run into them? Easy answers.) I keep hearing about all these great roles for mediums (hide behind the atlas and shoot at people! Wait, every mech does that well, and an atlas hiding behind an atlas does it the best) but none of them are actually important the way the game is balanced right now. Nothing matters except the ability to shoot people as quickly and as often as possible.

Proper scouting has always gave my team an advantage. To know what setup a mech has is crucial, also their positions. The reason why scouting is a worthless non-role is because scouts don't scout and communicate. 3L's go KWAK KWAK in the distance and help zero to none your team. You can always go stomping forward with your assault but it helps alot if you know what you're up against.

And personally I'd like to see more medium mechs saving my assault weight buttocks in an intense brawl.

[Keifomofutu]

IV Amen, on 15 May 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

Proper scouting has always gave my team an advantage. To know what setup a mech has is crucial, also their positions. The reason why scouting is a worthless non-role is because scouts don't scout and communicate. 3L's go KWAK KWAK in the distance and help zero to none your team. You can always go stomping forward with your assault but it helps alot if you know what you're up against.

And personally I'd like to see more medium mechs saving my assault weight buttocks in an intense brawl.

No ingame voice = no real way to communicate the results of your scouting. So really all your scouting will add up to will be "enemy in D6 where they are every game".

If you had ingame voice you could communicate that the enemy had a lot of snipers or brawlers or whatever. The ingame chat just falls between the cracks too quick to be useful. And people don't really pay attention to it anyway.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 15 May 2013 - 09:37 PM.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Keifomofutu, on 15 May 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

No ingame voice = no real way to communicate the results of your scouting. So really all your scouting will add up to will be "enemy in D6 where they are every game".

If you had ingame voice you could communicate that the enemy had a lot of snipers or brawlers or whatever. The ingame chat just falls between the cracks to quick to be useful. And people don't really pay attention to it anyway.

This is what happens. Scouts engaging firefights unnecessarily and not giving proper data. I agree about importance of ingame voice comms, but people not paying attention to chat is somewhat the same thing people not paying attention to target setups and go hug a dual AC/20 cat or jager. Acceptable of course if you can't read.

[Xyre]

Some ways lights and mediums could be made more viable are:

1) A cone of fire for all mechs that adjusts size based on movement, loadout and mech tonnage. Mediums and lights would be the most accurate fighters on the move or standing still. The more weapons used on a mech the larger the cone is etc, I think mediums and lights should be the most accurate fighters in the game.

2) Matchmaking based on tonnage, limited assaults and heavies, more mediums/lights

3) A progression system where you would have to elite(but not have to keep) mechs in order to unlock a heavier mech, that you would then have to elite to unlock an even heavier mech.

4) More object oriented maps that require mobility, like say a defend the outposts map where each team has three outposts around the map that can take damage and if all three are destroyed the team loses.

I know some of these have already been mentioned(if not possibly all), I was just putting down what seems most viable to me. I would not be against seeing any of these get tested or used and I rarely play a light or medium, but I would if some changes were made.

[Keifomofutu]

IV Amen, on 15 May 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

This is what happens. Scouts engaging firefights unnecessarily and not giving proper data. I agree about importance of ingame voice comms, but people not paying attention to chat is somewhat the same thing people not paying attention to target setups and go hug a dual AC/20 cat or jager. Acceptable of course if you can't read.

There is a lot of visual things to pay attention to in the game. As soon as any kind of action starts you are simply not going to look at the text chat at all.

When you start seeing typing again is after a bunch of people are dead.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Keifomofutu, on 15 May 2013 - 09:56 PM, said:

As soon as any kind of action starts you are simply not going to look at the text chat at all.

I always follow the text chat unless it's not about the match. And I am fully aware of what usually happens in a match communication wise. Played a few rounds myself too. I'm saying what I'd like to see from scouts. I understand it can be hard to write and play but for example simple "F 2 ac20" would give heads up for target F. Also if flanked, I'd like to be informed of that before flanked.

Yeah, I'm fantasizing again...

[sarkun]

Trauglodyte, on 15 May 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

Assault drivers don't complain because they can't scout.

That's because scouting is not really important in the current meta. And they do complain a LOT about base capping - just count the threads. Hint - they were not made by Light mech drivers.

IV Amen, on 15 May 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

This is what happens. Scouts engaging firefights unnecessarily and not giving proper data. I agree about importance of ingame voice comms, but people not paying attention to chat is somewhat the same thing people not paying attention to target setups and go hug a dual AC/20 cat or jager. Acceptable of course if you can't read.

Since the (awesome) addition of dynamic meshing, you can see the dual AC20 cat or Jaeger without checking it's load out - it's out there on the model! If you go hug that, you're bad at this game and no amount of scouting will save you.

Edited by sarkun, 15 May 2013 - 11:26 PM.

[Reptilizer]

Swiffllama, on 15 May 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

Well, that says it all. You wanted the easy button. You obviously don't have the mentality to be a hardcore medium pilot. I average 600+ dmg a game. And I work my tail off for it every match and do it with 52 front CT armor and a big *** chip on my shoulder. And guess what, that's enjoyable to me. I want to test my skill every time I play. There is nothing more enjoyable than taking down an Atlas on my own in my 4SP. Do I occasionally get a match with only 200-300 dmg. Sure, but it's usually because I was doing something stupid and deserved it. I have never been one shot in my 4SP. EVER! I have never been taken down by a lone light mech. And Dragon's have really big tasty center torsos that can be hit from around a corner by a blind one legged man with only 3 fingers on his right hand. Every build and every mech in this game has a counter. Finding that and exploiting it while protecting your own is half the fun. But hey, take that easy button if that is what you want.

Well, Kudos for your skillz m8. But doing 600 damage average means:

• You found a way to constantly fight against teams made from assaults only.
  
• The rest of your team constantly sucks badly
  
• You have a special team doctrine to humiliate and dismantle the enemy team entirely before destroying a mech.

Winning an assault match averagely takes about 1600 damage in total. You constantly doing 600 of that in a medium is absolutely outstanding piloting. It however is nothing to base assumptions for a weight class on.

Edit: After more research and angry voices coming through my tinfoil hat: The amount of total damage needed to win a game seems to be heavily influenced by the ELO bracket you are in. It also seems to be the way that the higher the ELO, the less overall damage is needed to bring the enemy team down -> more precise shooting on the vulnerable parts...

Edited by Reptilizer, 17 May 2013 - 01:59 AM.

[sarkun]

Another big reason Mediums suck right now is because missiles suck. SRMs were the perfect weapon for mediums - big damage for low weight. And the decline in LRMs usage also hurts Mediums - One could easily hide from missiles, with the warning and long flight time. There is no outrunning a PPC though.

[Kmieciu]

sarkun, on 15 May 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

Another big reason Mediums suck right now is because missiles suck. SRMs were the perfect weapon for mediums - big damage for low weight. And the decline in LRMs usage also hurts Mediums - One could easily hide from missiles, with the warning and long flight time. There is no outrunning a PPC though.

I could not have said it better. Medium mechs were the ones that could dodge LRMs and take them out up close with the SRMs. I remember rushing 2 LRM Stalker boats with my 3xSRM6 / 2ML Centurion and taking them both out. It took 3 salvos to the back to core an Assault mech. I know it was bugged, but at leas it gave mediums a role.

Yesterday i saw w 3xSRM6 Centurion that could not take out a 2xGauss XL Jager at point blank range. He did hit the Jager every time with the SRMS, and the Jager cored him using Gauss.
When a sniper build is more effective at point blank range than a dedicated brawler, you know that the game is poorly balanced.

Who would want to use a damage spreading "shotgun" type weapon, when the pinpoint weapon deals more damage? Both SRMs and LBX should be fearsome up close. Right now, there are only 3 weapons I fear: (ER)PPC, Gauss, AC20. I can spread laser damage, and dodge the LRMs.

Edited by Kmieciu, 16 May 2013 - 01:43 AM.

[trollocaustic]

Run up to a Assault's legs and go around, watch him become your helpless **** victim.
Go around him and cap while he's effectively useless and stuck.

[Reptilizer]

trollocaustic, on 16 May 2013 - 03:37 AM, said:

Run up to a Assault's legs and go around, watch him become your helpless **** victim.
Go around him and cap while he's effectively useless and stuck.

You obviously talk about spiders or such, right?
Because "hugging" an assault is certain death in any medium. You cant outrun or dodge an assaults alpha in a medium.

[trollocaustic]

I was talking mostly about the Cicada.

Otherwise, mediums are less vulnerable to light leg-humping than heavies or assaults. That's pretty much it I guess.

[Trauglodyte]

Braggart, on 15 May 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

Then I bought myself a cicada, and witnessed just how superior that guy is when it comes to flanking and fighting lights. I despise mentioning using the Cent, because something is wrong with that mech, the beating it can take has got to be a bug. If it werent for piloting Hunches and Trenches, And my only experience was the cent, I would say mediums are all right.

The Cicada is just pure sex on legs - the 2A is just so much fun and the X-5 is great. Cents seem to have the same "CT bug" that Atlases have: you can pound and pound and pound but they stick around somehow. I don't get it. As for the Trenchbucket, I only ever used one in TT where the model looked good but have avoided it like the plague ever since it was released. The Hunchback? <sigh> I tried the Hunchy. I even built a baby Warhammer Hunch style with the J and I just couldn't get it or any of the other models to work. Slow, sluggish, etc. Its like the Awesome 8 series only 30 tons lighter. Bleh!

As to people talking about useless roles, especially in terms of scouting, it isn't the problem of the role. The small maps don't allow it because they're, well, too damned small. When you can hit someone with an ER PPC or Gauss at their starting point (or near it) from your starting point (or near it), something is way wrong. Forrest Colony is 2000m x 2000m, River City is 2500m x 2500m, and I think that Frozen City is equal in size to RC. You don't need to cap in Caustic because running the 4 line is suicide if you start at the refinery (something that PUGs never learn) which puts 90% of the combat at the caldera or off the side towards the 7 line. THAT ISN'T TO SAY THAT SCOUTING ISN'T NEEDED, THOUGH. Yes, everyone goes to E6 in Tourmaline and yes everyone goes towards the valley or radio tower in Alpine. But knowing what the makeup is helps a lot. Alerting your teammates to flankers is important. Back scouting is hugely important on maps with blind spots to the sides (caves, etc). Most of this is pointless in PUG games but in organized 8 mans and the upcoming organized 12 mans, scouting will make or break your success and good players know that.

[Budor]

Swiffllama, on 15 May 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

You obviously don't have the mentality to be a hardcore medium pilot. I average 600+ dmg a game.

Stat screenshot or it didnt happen.

[Khanublikhan]

The problem with the current build of the game, in my humble opinion, is this:

The developers have not asked and answered the following questions:-

• The role(s) of a light battlemech are [.......]. The game mechanic(s) of [.......] support these role(s).
  
• The role(s) of a medium battlemech are [.......]. The game mechanic(s) of [.......] support these role(s).
  
• The role(s) of a heavy battlemech are [.......]. The game mechanic(s) of [.......] support these role(s).
  
• The role(s) of an assault battlemech are [.......]. The game mechanic(s) of [.......] support these role(s).

There needs to be a mission statement for each weight class of battlemech. There is a need, perhaps, to put distance between each weight. There need to be game mechanisms (mission rewards by weight class) that support these roles. Hardpoints and Heat are a beginning - but what else could there be? (Salvage, Repair Costs, Drop Costs, Time to Deploy, Drop Frequency Limits -- all modified by Tech Crew proficiencies.

[Khanublikhan]

For example:
(On a scale of Weak / Poor / Average / Good / Excellent).

Light Mechs:
Excellent Deployment Speed, Excellent Drop Frequency Limits. Slow to Repair (cramped chassis space).

Medium Mechs:
Good for all conditions.

Heavy Mechs:
Poor Deployment Speed, Poor Drop Frequency. Good Repair Speed. Good Refit Times.

Assault Mechs:
Weak Deployment Times, Weak Drop Frequency. Excellent Repair Times (Roomy Chassis Access) Weak Refit Times.

If you could build factors like the above into Community Warfare design (or something completely different) you seek to identify and differentiate between weight classes - which players need to think about.

Weight Roles:
XP Bonuses to support:

Light:
Reconaissance, Target Identification, Armour Puncture (removing armour over a locale down to internals).

Medium:
Base Capture, Base Denial, Light Mech Destruction, Limb Severing (removing arms or legs).

Heavy:
Map Asset Destruction (Buildings, CW Asset Targets), Medium Mech Destruction, Weapon Severing (removing weapons from opponents).

Assault:
Fortified Map Asset Destruction (Hardened Buildings, CW Asset Turret Targets, Heavy Mech Destruction, Engine Destruction.

Create a list of additional categories like the above. Let the player choose a few, to make their -role- unique. What is this? A hint of roleplay / individuality in MWO design....?

Edited by Khanublikhan, 16 May 2013 - 09:55 AM.