34 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

MechWarrior 1 and MechWarrior 4 have been the only games in the series to incorporate knockdowns into gameplay so far. They're a huge part of the board game and I'd love to see them return in MWO and will go as far as to assume they probably are in; so this is more about what happens when you are knocked down.

In both games, falling down could be brutal because it stopped your movement entirely and made almost 100% of enemy fire home in on you as an opportunity shot - in particular 4, given multiplayer. However, there was no damage or real.. feel to hitting the ground. By contrast, Steel Battalion (a non BTU game) handled this very well with severe damage and a horrible combination of metal bending and crunching, not to mention sliding from forward speed, when you collapsed that just sold it.

So really, the main things I'd really like to see in terms of knockdowns in MWO:

• Damage and sliding based on momentum - the later only applies in Table Top to some kinds of knockdowns, but I'd be alright to see it in any context in a sim.
  
• Sliding on pavement - In what would add another interesting element to city fighting, having 'mechs that are attempting full throttle sharp turns run the risk of sliding would add another layer of uniqueness to city fights. Going outside of TT rules seeing this in other capacities - such as ice surfaces - would be interesting as well.
  
• Sharp high speed turns & Damaged Gyros - Running on a damaged gyro can cause a steady risk on Table Top. While it's generally a random chance element there, I believe it could be easily translated to a skill system in MWO with audio or graphical ques telling the pilot when they are about to push a turn too far. None the less, however it's handled, I'd like to see 'mechs attempting high speed sharp turns run the risk of falling over, going into a knockdown situation - ideally a slide, again, in addition to TT.
  
• Taking too much fire while in the air - aside from the traditional knockdowns from incoming fire, taking them while jumping could send a 'mech crashing to Earth totally out of control for, again, enhanced damaged compared even to the TT mechanic. I think this would go a long way towards making the anti-pop tart crowd happy (which I'm not apart of) while adding some pretty cool atmosphere for those who are OK with it.
  
• High speed collisions - DFA or otherwise, it'd be good to see a 'mech that's colliding with another run the risk of getting violently knocked down as well as the one they hit, possibly avoidable with pilot modules.

Edited by Victor Morson, 28 April 2012 - 03:22 PM.

[Belisarius1]

Oh no.... Victor, I didn't expect to see you making one of these cancerous billion-option-polls.

Nonetheless the question is interesting. I think knockdown has to be in the game, and I wouldn't be averse to losing your balance on pavement or with a damaged gyro, but I agree that it's essential that it not just be a random occurrence. I would very much like to see some kind of mechanic analogous to TT's piloting skill checks. Pavement sliding in particular has to be handled very carefully, or city maps will just be an enormous cluster.

I know people tend to be violently against little hot-button minigames, but for something like turning a corner quickly it would be great if carefully tapping the opposite direction or twisting your torso to balance could be used to keep you upright. Rather than just a "you're going too far and now there's dice rolling" indicator, I'd like to see experienced pilots able to consistently take tighter corners at higher speed, and stay upright under more punishment. It should require a lot of finesse.

Regarding the aesthetics of skidding etc, I think Cryengine's physics should be capable of handling that without our adding extra rules. It always looked stupid in MW4 when 'mechs going 120 kph would come to a dead stop instantly and slowly keel over, but equally I don't want to see atlases zooming around on their backs. Falling over on hard surfaces, skidding into obstacles and collecting other 'mechs at speed should all do physics-based damage. Collisions in particular need to have very careful physics applied or they look ridiculous, but it would be spectacular to see two heavies smash into each other and get all tangled up as they go down.

Neutral on in-the-air damage. I'd like to see it modelled as another physics based thing, where a gauss hit to a midair light's arm would spin him around and off center, requiring the pilot to get things re-aligned and under control before he lands. That would work well with some degree of directionality to jump jets.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I agree with both the above posts. Such skills would also be useful to be implemented in the pilot/mech trees as it would make sense that the more you piloted your mech, the better chance you had of cornering etc. There have been several threads on mechs skidding, especially on roads. I feel that you should have a sort of "speed limit" ie 2/3rd speed as a sort of safe level for a mech or even "walk" speed as TT (though that might be a bit slow) above which you cant easily corner. It would make people think about piloting more rather than just setting the mech to full throttle in a built up area. It would still enable fast mechs to move at a reasonable speed.

[eZZip]

Victor Morson, on 28 April 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

MechWarrior 1 and MechWarrior 4 have been the only games in the series to incorporate knockdowns into gameplay so far.

MechWarrior 3 and MechCommander also had this, actually.

[Kudzu]

I'd add damaged hip actuators, taking massive damage in a short amount of time (ammo explosion, victim of serious focus fire, etc) and any damaged leg actuators when landing after jumping to the list of reasons to get knocked down.

Edited by Kudzu, 28 April 2012 - 05:10 PM.

[Belisarius1]

eZZip, on 28 April 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

MechWarrior 3 and MechCommander also had this, actually.

To this day, alone of all the 'mechs in CBT, the annihilator still gives me nightmares....

[Siilk]

eZZip, on 28 April 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

MechWarrior 3 and MechCommander also had this, actually.

True. MW3 done it perfectly.

[Hayashi]

I'd also like knockdown to be extra likely when shooting someone in the back as he climbs downhill or shooting someone in the front as he climbs uphill, like it would be given real physics. MechWarrior 4 did not account for ground slope in their knockdown calculations.

[Victor Morson]

Belisarius†, on 28 April 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

Oh no.... Victor, I didn't expect to see you making one of these cancerous billion-option-polls.

I really didn't want to make it so overly complex; the problem is I really had two things I wanted to talk about in the same thread (Knockdown effects and knockdown reasons) and thought making two threads would be overkill and offer a ton of redundant posts. So I figured it was better to bite the bullet and combine them into one.

Belisarius†, on 28 April 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

Nonetheless the question is interesting. I think knockdown has to be in the game, and I wouldn't be averse to losing your balance on pavement or with a damaged gyro, but I agree that it's essential that it not just be a random occurrence. I would very much like to see some kind of mechanic analogous to TT's piloting skill checks. Pavement sliding in particular has to be handled very carefully, or city maps will just be an enormous cluster.

I was thinking either subtle ques (Increasingly stressed sound effects or a graphical cockpit tilt) or very explicit ones (a graph/color indicator showing stress and indicating when you are nearing a knockdown) would work in terms of gryo/pavement skids - if you push it into those, you're doing so at your own risk with the idea being in most situations to avoid doing it. I agree making it a random roll would end up with a cluster, in particular on damaged gyro 'mechs.

Belisarius†, on 28 April 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

I know people tend to be violently against little hot-button minigames, but for something like turning a corner quickly it would be great if carefully tapping the opposite direction or twisting your torso to balance could be used to keep you upright. Rather than just a "you're going too far and now there's dice rolling" indicator, I'd like to see experienced pilots able to consistently take tighter corners at higher speed, and stay upright under more punishment. It should require a lot of finesse.

I think the main reason people hate these is when they are poorly integrated into the game; why I'm alright with a balance minigame or something simple like a Gears of War reloading minigame, because they're a consistent mechanic and you can count on them; versus the fad Quick Time Events which are sort of like Dragon's Lair and randomly throw buttons at you that you cannot prepare for because they are unique to a specific event. So yeah, something like that could work just fine.

Belisarius†, on 28 April 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

Regarding the aesthetics of skidding etc, I think Cryengine's physics should be capable of handling that without our adding extra rules. It always looked stupid in MW4 when 'mechs going 120 kph would come to a dead stop instantly and slowly keel over, but equally I don't want to see atlases zooming around on their backs. Falling over on hard surfaces, skidding into obstacles and collecting other 'mechs at speed should all do physics-based damage. Collisions in particular need to have very careful physics applied or they look ridiculous, but it would be spectacular to see two heavies smash into each other and get all tangled up as they go down.

I think it adds a little more than aesthetics too; if you've ever played the Pushing Down the Stairs Game (Stair Dismount), I kind of picture a 'mech version of that, heh - each and every tumbled limb / body impact resulting in damage to that area. I really loved how falling down in Steel Battalion felt like an OH ****!!! moment, and I'd like to see that in MW.

Belisarius†, on 28 April 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

Neutral on in-the-air damage. I'd like to see it modelled as another physics based thing, where a gauss hit to a midair light's arm would spin him around and off center, requiring the pilot to get things re-aligned and under control before he lands. That would work well with some degree of directionality to jump jets.

That's not a bad idea - hitting the area of the jump jets causing the knockdown could be an interesting way to handle it.

Hayashi, on 29 April 2012 - 06:43 AM, said:

I'd also like knockdown to be extra likely when shooting someone in the back as he climbs downhill or shooting someone in the front as he climbs uphill, like it would be given real physics. MechWarrior 4 did not account for ground slope in their knockdown calculations.

I really like the idea of this figuring in as well; it's a great example of not restricting the game to Table Top rules as some things are, quite frankly, insanely hard to calculate or properly figure in a TT environment.

[Belisarius1]

Victor Morson, on 01 May 2012 - 02:15 AM, said:

I was thinking either subtle ques (Increasingly stressed sound effects or a graphical cockpit tilt) or very explicit ones (a graph/color indicator showing stress and indicating when you are nearing a knockdown) would work in terms of gryo/pavement skids - if you push it into those, you're doing so at your own risk with the idea being in most situations to avoid doing it. I agree making it a random roll would end up with a cluster, in particular on damaged gyro 'mechs.

The idea of "at your own risk" is something I don't like, and I hold this position on heat as well. I believe there should be no risk of someone falling over or blowing up except as a result of their own mistakes. When it happens, they should know exactly what they did wrong.

As soon as you introduce a dice roll, the risk zone becomes a desirable place to inhabit because no matter how good you already are, you can push further by taking a small risk that usually pays off. When you're dealing with catastrophic failures at low percentages, though, things become very luck based and fights can be straight-up decided whenever someone happens to miss the routine roll. To me, that's bad design, even if it's a fundamental feature of TT battletech.

So even if it's not necessarily realistic, I think it's important to design things in terms of clear pass and fail metrics instead of safe zones and risk zones.

Edited by Belisarius†, 01 May 2012 - 06:16 AM.

[Long Draw]

How about we just treat this like we do in real life? The faster speed you travel at, the less your friction coefficient becomes, increasing the distance you need to reduce speed. Also, the faster you travel at, the harder it is to alter direction of travel (tangential forces being applied here). These concepts could easily be applied using the above mentioned risk bar.

Of course, this brings another thought to mind. Have the developers accounted for speed and direction of travel when hit by ballistic weapons from certain directions traveling at certain speeds? If I'm running away at 75kph from my enemy and he's pursuing me at 55kph and he fires an Ultra Guass at me from say 400m, the damage should be reduced due to the distance and the 20kph difference in speed. This is because when you double your speed, you quadruple your energy (reference potential and kinetic energy). Alternately, if I am traveling at 60kph toward my opponent and they are traveling at 60kph toward me, then our combined speed of 120kph should factor into the damage done at the same 500m distance, causing much more damage.

Edited by Long Draw, 01 May 2012 - 11:39 AM.

[Belisarius1]

Long Draw, on 01 May 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

How about we just treat this like we do in real life? The faster speed you travel at, the less your friction coefficient becomes, increasing the distance you need to reduce speed.

That's actually not how it works at all... µ is independent of speed.

Long Draw, on 01 May 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

Of course, this brings another thought to mind. Have the developers accounted for speed and direction of travel when hit by ballistic weapons from certain directions traveling at certain speeds? If I'm running away at 75kph from my enemy and he's pursuing me at 55kph and he fires an Ultra Guass at me from say 400m, the damage should be reduced due to the distance and the 20kph difference in speed.

Those sorts of things effects are pretty much negligible, because your relative speeds are going to be very low compared to the round.

[GaussDragon]

Since I've already put in my two cents on the matter, I'm just gonna go ahead and leave this here (scroll to the bottom of my post) http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

ALSO, does anyone still have the Excel file for the knockdown calculator that I put up? I lost it when my last boot drive went poof and the download link has since expired...

[Long Draw]

Belisarius†, on 01 May 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

That's actually not how it works at all... µ is independent of speed.



Those sorts of things effects are pretty much negligible, because your relative speeds are going to be very low compared to the round.

Okay Belisarius, what is your background in physics exactly?

[Belisarius1]

Grad student in biophysics.

If you're actually an engineer, sure, I'll bow to your expertise, but you were incorrect about the coefficient of friction. You're right that you take longer to stop if you're going faster, but it isn't because µ changes. I probably should have made that clearer.

You're welcome to do calculations to prove me wrong on the other part. I'd be very surprised, though.

Edited by Belisarius†, 02 May 2012 - 12:34 AM.

[Long Draw]

Okay, bio physics is close enough i guess. And my point of bringing that up is that you can't stop at the same rate of deceleration that you accellerated at the higher the speed is that you attain. Reason being that whether you're on rubber, or endo steel, it's going to heat up the material that is interacting with the walking/running surface, and in the process, reduce your (and I'm probably using the wrong word here cause I'm tired from those frickin telemarketers calling so early) tractive force that you have at your disposal when reducing speed.

[MaddMaxx]

We have been here before... Knockdown sounds all cool and stuff, but actually getting knocked down when under the enemies guns simply sucks the FUN out of any encounter, no matter how it is achieved.

How about we implement the ability for our Mechs to "Stick their Foot Out" and trip them speedy little buggers too.

Then all you have to do is ALPHA them to death after they stop tumbling.

[Victor Morson]

MaddMaxx, on 02 May 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

We have been here before... Knockdown sounds all cool and stuff, but actually getting knocked down when under the enemies guns simply sucks the FUN out of any encounter, no matter how it is achieved.

I think this is where opinions are going to differ - I have the most fun in a game when there is tension, and nothing is as tense as crashing into the ground and wincing as you hear your armor being torn away, all while ending up a sitting duck for several seconds. Sure, if you die in these situations you might scream an obsensity, but if you make it back up and away from the catastrophy it's a great rush of a moment.

This is really where two POVs - the Sim crowd and the action/arcade crowd - are bound to clash a little depending on what you want MechWarrior to be.

[MaddMaxx]

Victor Morson, on 02 May 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

I think this is where opinions are going to differ - I have the most fun in a game when there is tension, and nothing is as tense as crashing into the ground and wincing as you hear your armor being torn away, all while ending up a sitting duck for several seconds. Sure, if you die in these situations you might scream an obsensity, but if you make it back up and away from the catastrophy it's a great rush of a moment.

This is really where two POVs - the Sim crowd and the action/arcade crowd - are bound to clash a little depending on what you want MechWarrior to be.

OK, point. But then it has to assured that the 100T Mech and the 25T mech have the exact same chance to be knocked down right? Otherwise only one gets a chance at the Thrills while the other always get the shots for the Kills.

[Dragorath]

Mid-air damage should cause knock down if the damage value is high. It would be ahhhh let's say awkward to be thrown out of balance because you were hit by a small laser oO. Especially when you are within a Catapult.
Example: You jump and i touch your legs with my finger or you jump and I do a serious kick. BIG difference.

Edited by Dragorath, 05 May 2012 - 06:31 AM.