92 replies to this topic

[Ryllen Kriel]

I never feared the StreakCat much before ECM unless I was on my own against it without much to hide behind. The ScaryCat with the 6XSRM6s was always more frightening to me. I wouldn't mind seeing the A1 come back as a viable mech. Both pure StreakCat or ScaryCat builds felt too cheesy to play for me so I always did combinations of LRM/SRM/SSRMs no matter the role I tried when grinding EXP with Catapults. Six missle slots is a tough one to fill without it being a cheese build however, I'm just glad the Thunderbolt missle isn't in this game.

[Springbok]

All this talk about the A1 resurgence made me dust of my old A1, sitting unused since the start of open Beta in my mechbay and do 6 quick PUG rounds in it:



Even in this PPC dominated meta, it’s already quite deadly if played right. Was not difficult to get in the kills once close and did almost 400 damage per round.

I foresee a lot of QQ’ing and nerve calls on the forums once the actual patch hits.

[Ryllen Kriel]

I remember all the hate for the A1 this last October/November. The solution was just an instinct really, the only teamwork you could rely upon in a PUG. Everyone just learned to recognize it by it's shape and focus fire as soon as it came into view. No matter the PUG, they usually uniformly ignored whatever else they were doing and blew every A1 into hell that they saw.

[Roland]

General Taskeen, on 13 May 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

Implementation B (MW4). The SSRM moved where your cursor was located. (I.E., You shot, and the missile(s) went where you aim by tracking the aim cursor, which is not the same as current dumb-fire SRM's) <- No arbritrary "percentage" based hits, entirely based on the skill of a user's aim.

Just to clarify, in MW4, the SSRM's didn't really continue to track your cursor.

When you pulled the trigger, the SSRM's would fire and lock onto the exact location of the cursor on an enemy mech. Once that happened though, they were fire and forget.

If anything, this made them infinitely stronger than they are in MWO, since you could use them to obliterate any part of an enemy mech.

[Vassago Rain]

Ryllen Kriel, on 20 May 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

I remember all the hate for the A1 this last October/November. The solution was just an instinct really, the only teamwork you could rely upon in a PUG. Everyone just learned to recognize it by it's shape and focus fire as soon as it came into view. No matter the PUG, they usually uniformly ignored whatever else they were doing and blew every A1 into hell that they saw.

White whale, holy grail.

[DemonRaziel]

Kyynele, on 20 May 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:

I wouldn't call the difference between firing hundreds of LRMs towards enemies and not being to able to do anything 'very little.' Yes, the LRM boat is ****** if a light mech is close and team members aren't helping, but he's not out of the game at that same instant. I don't know if you've not just played LRMs much, but that is a big issue even if it doesn't really help the LRM boater against that particular light at all.

In my opinion ECM never should have disabled enemy 'Mechs from locking on targets not covered by ECM. ECM should have shielded you and your allies within range from lock-ons. BAP should have allowed you to lock onto a shielded 'Mech.
They implemented the item wrong in the first place and now they decided to "fix" it by implementing another item wrong - shutting down ECM is just as wrong as shutting down lock-on-missile-focused 'Mechs. This world of definitives (i.e. it either works too well, or not at all) is a rock-paper-scissors approach that works out poorly.

Kyynele, on 20 May 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:

The weight and crits have to come somewhere. I really doubt 6PPC 4 SSRM2 Stalkers would be very good. Most mechs have 2-3 missile hardpoints at maximum, and even a StreakCat takes at least 4 full salvos to kill a light. There are no instant deaths in sight here.

2 Streaks, 1 ton of ammo, BAP - 5.5t. Add 2.5t for another SSRM and a ton of ammo. Price many a 'Mech pilot will be willing to pay (in fact many do so already) to be able to pee all over any light 'Mech that dares to get close enough to shoot it with its MPL effectively.

Kyynele, on 20 May 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:

Yet, before the missile nerf LRMs were much more common in PUG matches than SSRMs for a long time, save for the ECM-streak abusers. I fail to see why they wouldn't gain back some of their popularity with the coming buffs. I think you're confusing weapon efficiency in general with what's efficient against the mechs you play.

Yet, there is also a reason LRMs are and far less common in 8mans. As a side not, I have been playing 'Mechs in every weight category except Heavies and most of my 'Mechs are mastered.
On the other hand, before the missile nerf, I was not playing any 'Mech over 50t, I will grant you that.

Kyynele, on 20 May 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:

The other way to look at the AC/20 vs Gauss situation would be that there needs to be another lock-on missile without minimum range, so people can have a choice in their short range homing gear, but I thought it was fairly obvious that the word choice is thrown in here just to have an excuse to demand that nobody should still be able to lock on you.

Why exactly does there need to be a lock-on missile that, unlike LRMs, is almost impossible to dodge and from now on will no longer be avoidable by ECM? This easy mode is much more easy than what you claim ECM did for its weilders. YMMV

Kyynele, on 20 May 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:

So, considering that the usual matches our group plays mostly in heavies and assaults with usually 1 light scout at max, are very even matches that usually end up in defeat if the rest 4 get themselves killed, switching to all lights and continuously roflstomping in straight combat, without any basecap trickery demonstrates nothing? Fine.

A group built with 4 'Mechs of similar speeds and engagement ranges can coordinate its action much more easily and by concentrating its firepower on a single enemy at a time remove the enemies one by one much more easily. While the enemy probably spreads the damage all over you and your team mates. Plus, 3x JR + 3L is among the strongest combos you can do on a wolf pack.
Lower the firepower a bit. Run the test again, with a SDR-5D, 5V and 2 Commandos. You will still have the upper hand in coordination, but you will take longer to kill your enemies and they will have more time to kill you. Or run it w/out ECM and try to synch against another premade group equipped with (not solely, of course) streaks among its loadout. Trust me, the difference will be noticable.
Also, running a wolf pack is a lot different than running a lone Light 'Mech in a PUG game and encountering a bunch of guys equipped with streaks. This guy will have his day ruined in an instant. That's why I said your test is not fair. And I stand by it.

[Kyynele]

I have played my share of lights solo as well. At the height of ECM when streaks did a lot more damage, light fights were commonly won by the side which brought more ECM with them. I'm glad those times aren't coming back.

I stand by my opinion that a couple Streaks isn't nearly as big of a worry as you make it to be. A single AC40 to the leg is usually instant game over, while 2-3 streaks in your face just take away some of your CT.

LRMs are (or should be) strong against slow targets. Fast mechs are strong against LRM boats. Streaks are strong against fast mechs. Slow mechs with big guns are strong against Streak boats. Current ECM enables some lights not to be particularily weak against anything. If rock-paper-scissors mechanics isn't good, rock-paper-scissors-chainsaw surely isn't an improvement. Good riddance.

I'll leave you to your QQ, since you obviously are only interested in retaining your personal cloak of invincibility.

[DemonRaziel]

Kyynele, on 20 May 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

I'll leave you to your QQ, since you obviously are only interested in retaining your personal cloak of invincibility.

And you messed up the discussion right there at the end, by showing how above it all you are.
I am just going to say we should agree to disagree, because clearly none of us is going to convinve the other one.

I have actually planned to respond to your last post in more depth but then I realized there is no point anymore. We have both posted our arguments, commented on each other's posts and retained our differring opinions: You dislike ECM, think SSRMs are fine, welcome the new change. I hate the fact that SSRMs' are the deciding factor in Light fights and think ECM needs a fix, not a hard counter.

[FupDup]

Kyynele, on 20 May 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

I have played my share of lights solo as well. At the height of ECM when streaks did a lot more damage, light fights were commonly won by the side which brought more ECM with them. I'm glad those times aren't coming back.

I stand by my opinion that a couple Streaks isn't nearly as big of a worry as you make it to be. A single AC40 to the leg is usually instant game over, while 2-3 streaks in your face just take away some of your CT.

Except that AC/40 requires the enemy to use aiming, judgement, and the heavily-used "s" word of skill. AC/40 has a way of making me feel like I'm in part responsible for making the error of not staying out of his sights, not differentiating my speed, etc...so, it feels like I was beaten because he played to his strengths better than I did. When being killed by SSRMs, that is simply not the case. It feels like the only way to avoid it is not clicking the "launch" button. The battle feels like it ended before it even began. You can't outrun an SSRM light or in some odd cases even a max-engine Treb/Cent.

Here is a post by somebody else from another thread on the issue. I apologize in advance for it being a colossal wall o' text:

Carrioncrows, on 19 May 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

Once again lets examine a post and point out the flaws:



This is full of so many holes I don't know where to start. How about the middle. Zig Zagging does nothing, you are not trying to use your weapons to actually hit the mech itself, you are locking on to a box sized outline of a mech. Magically easy. And it's 2 seconds btw, but lets take your "Suggestion" and call it fact. Even if you can dodge the willy nilly out of him this isn't counter play.

Picture counter play like a chess match, he makes his move and then you make your move. The above is having your bishop spend the length of the match running away from his queen. It isn't an answer it's only delay'n the inevitable.

Your not actually involved your just avoiding engagement.

How does this differ from someone with lasers or ballistics?

The more time you spend being evasive the harder it is to hit, the more time you spend being precise with your shots the more accurate you are. It's like a slider bar, you go full evasive (dodge, turn torso, ect ect) when it's their turn to fire and slow down to plant your shots when they go full evasive. That's counter play.



Once again your advice is: don't get locked up by streaks..... (=|

The only way not to get locked up by streaks is to not play the game. It's going to happen, you can run as long as you like but once again that's not good counter play your just running away from the engagement instead of being involved in it.

As I mentioned in the previous post once he has lock he only needs to occasionally have LOS every 3.5 secs to maintain that lock, the rest of the time he just holds down the trigger.

I'll say this again:
If SSRM'***** a building, that is not skill on your part.
That is lazyness on my part because I am holding down the button and don't give a XXXX.



There is no dead angle. Even the fastest mechs versus the slowest mechs can only stay with in a targets rear arc for a few moments at best, and as I said above once he has lock (2 secs) it takes almost zero effort to maintain it. (Touch yer mech with my cursor once every 3.5 secs)

So your advice boils down to:
1. Don't get locked up by streaks by running away.
2. Don't get locked up by streaks by putting a building between you.
3. Don't get locked up by streaks by being out of their LOS.

None of this helps a person against streaks.

What helps a person against Lasers, ballistics, SRM's and LRMs

Evasion - changing elevation, going over rough terrain, jump jetting these all help generate a miss or minimize the amount of damage, like lasers you have to stay on target to deal the full damage.

Torso Rolling - This helps a lot in the case of Lasers in that you can spread his damage out over several locations, it helps a lot in the case of Direct fire weapons in that you can minimize where you don't want to be hit.

Minimum Ranges / Maximum Ranges - You know em, get under them or get over them.

Weapon Speeds - Changing throttle controls can make a person overshoot or undershoot depending on how slow the projectile is.

Mech Locations - Some mechs arms ride low by having higher elevation you can make their ***** hit the dirt, some mechs have horrible vertical torso pitch, being above or below them limits their options.

All of these things are options you can utilize to minimize or avoid damage.

With Streaks doing any of the above doesn't help you.
Evasion - Once they have lock on your missiles don't miss. The guy firing them can be lazy and launch them into cover but it's not evasion on your part. Torso Rolling - Seems like it would work but bug right now where they always tag the Torso's and always do full damage. You can't minimize it at all. Weapon Speeds - It has zero missile agility which means it does instant turns out of the launcher, you don't need LOS just lock on. Min/max - Projectile still fires to fast to out run it. Mech Locations - Missile agility means it doesn't matter where it's fired from it's going to track you.

These are all issues of why Streaks are a bad weapon because they lack counter play.

/wall of text

Kyynele, on 20 May 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

Current ECM enables some lights not to be particularly weak against anything.

ECM doesn't block PPCs, AC/20, Gauss, Large Lasers, Large Pulse Lasers, standard SRMs, etc...you're right about the ability to hard-counter lock-on based missiles being a bad mechanic of ECM, but that is only half of the problem. The other half is that ECM was introduced in the first place as an overpowered item to counter overpowered missiles.

Kyynele, on 20 May 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

If rock-paper-scissors mechanics isn't good, rock-paper-scissors-chainsaw surely isn't an improvement. Good riddance.

Rock-paper-scissors-chainsaw is exactly the route PGI has taken thus far. Missiles (particularly Lurms) used to be too strong so they introduced the broken item ECM to be the rock to that scissors. ECM proved to be just as horribly broken so now they're going to introduce something of similar brokenness to continue the cycle.

If you fix ECM without fixing the missiles, then the missiles return to superiority (Lurms will be bad for quite some time until damage is buffed but Streaks are going to make a comeback). If you fix missiles without fixing ECM, then the missiles stay underloved and ECM stays obnoxiously overpowered. And tomorrow, adding BAP will be an overpowered item that counters a different overpowered item (ECM) that counters another overpowered item (lock-on missiles,or just Streaks until Lurms get a damage buff).

Edited by FupDup, 20 May 2013 - 07:31 AM.

[Bad Andy]

you guys know in TT/other MW games all srm's are somewhat guided? it's only in MWO they are totally dumbfired

[Ryllen Kriel]

Vassago Rain, on 20 May 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

White whale, holy grail.

Hey, I piloted an A1 in that time frame and it was amusing how many people instantly jumped on me just because I was an A1 pilot. I never really did much of streak boating or SRM6 boating, it was usually a mix of long range and short range weapons for defense and survivability. But just piloting an A1, you were a white whale!

[Vassago Rain]

Ryllen Kriel, on 21 May 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

Hey, I piloted an A1 in that time frame and it was amusing how many people instantly jumped on me just because I was an A1 pilot. I never really did much of streak boating or SRM6 boating, it was usually a mix of long range and short range weapons for defense and survivability. But just piloting an A1, you were a white whale!

The ghetto learned well that all A1s and K2s must die first. They instinctively aim for you, and their aim somehow improves a lot when they're shooting cats.

Natural response to the apex predator, I guess.

[627]

The only thing they seem to forget is that some cats hunt in packs and not alone.

In a cat and mouse game, the cat is still the cat no matter how big her ears are.