396 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

There was a state of mind bred by the first 4 maps and their alternates: The Blob mentality.
The whole team sticks together and moves as a single blob, focuses targets and attempts to take out the other team faster.
If anyone caps, they're automatically a noob/loser/*******/jerk/*****/moron/etc...
This is blob mentality- or what I personally call; The "Assault Racket."

Assault mechs are undeniably the best at slaughtering mechs face to face, and now even in long range combat with the release of the Highlander.

So, what is the weakness of the Assault mech? Being the slowest on the battlefield.. that makes them vulnerable to being outmaneuvered. Now, as an assault mech, players know they can't go fast AND have ridiculous firepower so in order to negate their maneuverability disadvantage, they've made it socially unacceptable to outmaneuver them: "I've come here to blow up robots, not cap!" or "CapWarrior: Online" are common (un)clever epithets regarding capping.

This mentality has led to the crippling of the medium and light classes, it wasn't felt harshly until recently when the HSR removal of lag-shield made medium/light brawling non-viable.
The advantage of the medium and light chassis has been their maneuverability, which has been effectively outlawed by the Assault racket.

--------------------------------

So what needs to happen?

Start maneuvering.

I see a consistent battlefield routine in Alpine where the northeastern team moves a little ways away from their base to the closest ridge, sets up a firing line, and sits waiting for the other team, who dutifully runs right to them, intent on meeting in straightforward combat. Except the combat isn't straight forward, they get picked apart while maneuvering the open terrain to get to the enemy. You can see on the heat-map that there is where the majority of the deaths are.

Solution: Have some patience and don't engage them on their protective ridge. Stay back, flank to another side, send a jumpjet light mech to their base just to tap it and retreat up the hill just to create concern in two directions. Do not engage them when they have protective hill and you have open terrain. You will get picked apart, PPCs, Guass, LLasers, etc.. you will get picked apart.

Don't play into the Assault Racket. Cap them, force them to move. If they wish to bring the biggest load of weapons they can, make them pay for it, you're already paying a handicap in fighting by being completely outmatched in firepower, make them pay a handicap of being completely outmaneuvered.

In the Desert, same thing: Out maneuver them.


If anyone calls you something because you aren't fighting straight up, tell them to F-off and figure out how fights are really won.

I can tell you now, I will be capping bases until people figure it out. It could be considered trolling, but to that; I say the Assault Racket is trolling and therefore it's fair.

-Livewyr

(minor grammar edits)

Edited by Livewyr, 12 May 2013 - 12:55 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

My atlases run 350 engines.

[Panzerman03]

God, this again.

Lights don't suck.

Mediums suck because they're at a disadvantage against everything that's not a medium in almost any scenario.

Capwarriors suck and I have zero compunctions about accidentally legging them when I see them.

The problem with maneuvering in a fast brawler is that you'll always be alone when you're pugging.

[Edwyndham]

Have you been in the 8-man Assault matches where the other team takes 8 ER PPC Atlases, a bag of marshmallows, some kindling for a fire, and then refuses to move more than 100m from their base?

[Livewyr]

Panzerman03, on 12 May 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

God, this again.

Lights don't suck. True, they don't, except in current usage.

Mediums suck because they're at a disadvantage against everything that's not a medium in almost any scenario.
Tell me why that is?

Capwarriors suck and I have zero compunctions about accidentally legging them when I see them.
That would make you a prime example of: "in order to negate their maneuverability disadvantage, they've made it socially unacceptable to outmaneuver them: "I've come here to blow up robots, not cap!" or "CapWarrior: Online" are common (un)clever epithets regarding capping."

The problem with maneuvering in a fast brawler is that you'll always be alone when you're pugging.
Care to tell me why that is?

It's almost as if I asked for an example from the audience of Card Carrying member of the Assault Racket.

zwanglos, on 12 May 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

Have you been in the 8-man Assault matches where the other team takes 8 ER PPC Atlases, a bag of marshmallows, some kindling for a fire, and then refuses to move more than 100m from their base?

I haven't seen the full 8man Atlas team, but I have seen 6 ER/PPC assaults and a couple of Ravens or Jenners pull that stunt.

If I see that, I personally would be more than content leaving one light mech to keep an eye on enemy movement, and have everyone else on my team minimize, check e-mails, peruse the forums, etc.. just stay on TS until the other team decides to get off their duff.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

If a games population exploits certain mechanics en masse then the game is not balanced (like right now)

People naturally roll what is overpowered, and guess whats overpowered right now?

We need an actual solution.

Edited by AntiCitizenJuan, 12 May 2013 - 01:17 PM.

[Livewyr]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 12 May 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

If a games population exploits certain mechanics en masse then the game is not balanced (like right now)

People naturally roll what is overpowered, and guess whats overpowered right now?

We need an actual solution.

A game created solution to a stupid tactic merely creates another just like it.
Nerf PPCs and Gauss? Go right back to blob brawling where you completely miss the other team on river city....

This is needed on the player side of things.. start capping. Make it painful to try and run the assault racket.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Livewyr, on 12 May 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

A game created solution to a stupid tactic merely creates another just like it.
Nerf PPCs and Gauss? Go right back to blob brawling where you completely miss the other team on river city....

This is needed on the player side of things.. start capping. Make it painful to try and run the assault racket.

That isnt going to change anything. The reason we see these radical shifts from one FOTM cheese build to the other is that PGI doesnt know how to make gradual changes. When they finally pick up on something being blatantly overpowered (usually months too late) they nerf the **** out of it instead of bringing it down one notch at a time, or bringing other systems up gradually.

Edited by AntiCitizenJuan, 12 May 2013 - 01:22 PM.

[Tor6]

Most mediums aren't very fast and even if they maneuver to flank assaults they're not fast enough to actually keep from being instantly exploded. They simply don't have the speed or the armor to take hits like they'd need to going only 90 kph. And if you take a big xl engine in a cent/treb prepare to die in 2 alphas from the line of ppc boats you're flanking. Out maneuvering an enemy means nothing if you die instantly afterward.

If mediums (not counting the cicada) were either A. Harder to hit by virtue of being smaller/faster or B. Tougher by virtue of having heavier armor they'd be great. Except then they'd be lights or heavies and not mediums. The problem with mediums is that they do everything passably but nothing well. Fast brawler with mixed lasers/missiles? Cat with an xl can probably do it as well or better. Scout? too slow to keep up with lights and too big to avoid fire. They do everything ok but they're beat by everything in any niche they try to fill. The tragedy of the generalist.

[Livewyr]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 12 May 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

That isnt going to change anything. The reason we see these radical shifts from one FOTM cheese build to the other is that PGI doesnt know how to make gradual changes. When they finally pick up on something being blatantly overpowered (usually months too late) they nerf the **** out of it instead of bringing it down one notch at a time, or bringing other systems up gradually.

I see what you're saying, but I disagree wholeheartedly.

Range Boating happened like this:
Large maps with large open spaces kicked brawling off the thrown.
Adding an assault mech with Jumpjets just made a more effective jumpsniper than the Cat 3D, the previous jumpsniping champion (that is still in service).
Host state rewind made clicking your mouse accurately with a bunch of weapons much more effective- meaning you could strip all the armor off of (or one-shot) smaller mechs.

[Panzerman03]

Livewyr, on 12 May 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

It's almost as if I asked for an example from the audience of Card Carrying member of the Assault Racket.

Except that I primarily play fast brawler mediums and heavies. I just recognize that the problem is a combination of mech, map, and weapon balance and that the solution is not to be a troll until people agree to stop playing optimal builds.

To your individual barbs:

Lights don't suck in any usage. They're still excellent strikers, scouts, skirmishers, and brawlers.

Mediums suck because any situation that calls for speed calls for a light, and any situation that calls for firepower calls for a heavy/assault. Mediums are bad at everything.

You can use your persecuted "I'm not socially accepted" line all you want, but the fact remains that playing capwarrior avoids a game that I'd prefer to play. You try holding my fun hostage and I'll blow your legs off, blue or not.

And if you're playing a fast brawler and you're pugging, you're alone because fast bralwers lose against snipers in brawls.

[Tor6]

Panzerman03, on 12 May 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

You can use your persecuted "I'm not socially accepted" line all you want, but the fact remains that playing capwarrior avoids a game that I'd prefer to play. You try holding my fun hostage and I'll blow your legs off, blue or not.

Just gonna say that capping is a valid strategy and I hope you get banned for teamkilling/legging. Entitled children like you should get out since you clearly can't handle playing an objective based game.

[Livewyr]

Tor6, on 12 May 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

Most mediums aren't very fast and even if they maneuver to flank assaults they're not fast enough to actually keep from being instantly exploded. They simply don't have the speed or the armor to take hits like they'd need to going only 90 kph. And if you take a big xl engine in a cent/treb prepare to die in 2 alphas from the line of ppc boats you're flanking. Out maneuvering an enemy means nothing if you die instantly afterward.

If mediums (not counting the cicada) were either A. Harder to hit by virtue of being smaller/faster or B. Tougher by virtue of having heavier armor they'd be great. Except then they'd be lights or heavies and not mediums. The problem with mediums is that they do everything passably but nothing well. Fast brawler with mixed lasers/missiles? Cat with an xl can probably do it as well or better. Scout? too slow to keep up with lights and too big to avoid fire. They do everything ok but they're beat by everything in any niche they try to fill. The tragedy of the generalist.

Mediums are good for taking out lights.

Example: When in Alpine with my Centurion, I keep terrain between myself and the enemy while moving generally around them in a similar direction as my scout- when my scout finds them and gets engaged by their scout(s) he brings them back to me because I'm closer than our heavy forces, and have more firepower/armor than the lights. I can be escaped, but not as easily, not before inflicting some heavy damage on his retreat.

This is not an anecdotal incident, this is a concept.

Another one- once heavy forces engage, I take my faster mech with some firepower and I engage the enemy from behind, if only for a brief time before leaving.. simply to create cross-fire and multi directional concern. (Confusion for simple terms.)

Also not an anecdotal incident, but a concept.

These are things that mediums should be doing, but aren't. They buy into the straightforward engagement protocol instead of using their speed to shoot and be gone before the enemy can even identify their location.

[Panzerman03]

Tor6, on 12 May 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

Just gonna say that capping is a valid strategy and I hope you get banned for teamkilling/legging. Entitled children like you should get out since you clearly can't handle playing an objective based game.

Capping as a strategic move is fine. Capping just to spite everyone else in the game who isn't you is trolling.

[Livewyr]

Panzerman03, on 12 May 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

Except that I primarily play fast brawler mediums and heavies. I just recognize that the problem is a combination of mech, map, and weapon balance and that the solution is not to be a troll until people agree to stop playing optimal builds.

To your individual barbs:

Lights don't suck in any usage. They're still excellent strikers, scouts, skirmishers, and brawlers.
Interesting.. almost every time I see a light engaging heavies in a brawl, he gets about 20-30 seconds on average before being legged and killed. HSR killed light brawling.. they just don't realize it yet.


Mediums suck because any situation that calls for speed calls for a light, and any situation that calls for firepower calls for a heavy/assault. Mediums are bad at everything.
Mediums excel at causing chaos, they can mount heavier weapons than lights, and can move faster than assaults and heavies... they excel at that, just nobody uses them that way. (Assault Racket)

You can use your persecuted "I'm not socially accepted" line all you want, but the fact remains that playing capwarrior avoids a game that I'd prefer to play. You try holding my fun hostage and I'll blow your legs off, blue or not.
Well.. you're freaking special, aren't you. Yes, you are.


And if you're playing a fast brawler and you're pugging, you're alone because fast bralwers lose against snipers in brawls.

That's because they keep trying to approach the sniper while the sniper can shoot them... it doesn't take any braincells to figure out that putting terrain between you and a sniper keeps you alive. (Perhaps your braincells were TK'd?)

Yeah.. you are special.


EDIT:
I'll not devolve further in interaction with you.
You're dismissed

Edited by Livewyr, 12 May 2013 - 01:44 PM.

[Lefty Lucy]

Livewyr, on 12 May 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

Mediums are good for taking out lights.

Example: When in Alpine with my Centurion, I keep terrain between myself and the enemy while moving generally around them in a similar direction as my scout- when my scout finds them and gets engaged by their scout(s) he brings them back to me because I'm closer than our heavy forces, and have more firepower/armor than the lights. I can be escaped, but not as easily, not before inflicting some heavy damage on his retreat.

This is not an anecdotal incident, this is a concept.

Another one- once heavy forces engage, I take my faster mech with some firepower and I engage the enemy from behind, if only for a brief time before leaving.. simply to create cross-fire and multi directional concern. (Confusion for simple terms.)

Also not an anecdotal incident, but a concept.

These are things that mediums should be doing, but aren't. They buy into the straightforward engagement protocol instead of using their speed to shoot and be gone before the enemy can even identify their location.

The same tactic can be performed with a fast heavy.

IMO if they want to really highlight mediums as "light hunters" they need to give the medium class a universal bonus to acceleration, deceleration, twist speed, twist range, arm speed and range, etc. Right now all of these, barring the individual mech quirks that have been introduced to *some* but not all chassis, are tied directly to max ground speed.

Mediums need to be significantly more mobile than other classes with the same ground speed. Only then will they be effective light hunters/in fighters compared to fast heavies or some of the more proficient light chassis.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

Vassago Rain, on 12 May 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

My atlases run 350 engines.

Mine runs 350 km/h

[Vassago Rain]

Tor6, on 12 May 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

Just gonna say that capping is a valid strategy and I hope you get banned for teamkilling/legging. Entitled children like you should get out since you clearly can't handle playing an objective based game.

[Panzerman03]

Livewyr, on 12 May 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

EDIT:
I'll not devolve further in interaction with you.
You're dismissed

LOL, you announced that you're trolling in this post and your one in the other thread. Hard to go much lower from your starting point.

[stjobe]

Second to last time I got flak for capping, it went something like this (after my dead team-mates asked me to cap instead of taking the last Assault on, having dispatched the two next to last 'mechs by myself):
Assault pilot (Atlas, last left on his team, almost unscathed): "P*ssy!"
Me (SDR-5D, red CT, no armour on arms, last left on my team): "Fattie!"
AP: "Capping is so f***king lame"
Me: "Not defending your base is lamer".

Last time it went like this: We're three lights that make a flank rush for the enemy's base, and when we start capping general lights up like Christmas:
"Soo f***king lame!",
"Cowards",
"Don't you have the balls to fight us?"
etc - to which I reply
"Sure, we'll fight. Come back here and we'll fight".

And they do, and they win a very tightly fought game. I personally think everyone enjoyed that more than the usual ridge-fighting in the middle.