396 replies to this topic

[Lostdragon]

The easiest fix is to just change Assault mode from the broken POS it is now. If one team was defending an objective and the other was dropped in a random location to destroy or capture the objective it would change things a lot.

Scouting becomes important for both teams. Drawing the enemy away from the fight or into an ambush becomes something other than standing in a square hoping someone shows up to defend. Powering down to ambush might actually happen.

Most importantly you eliminate cap rushes where there is not a shot fired.

[Roland]

Lostdragon, on 13 May 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

The easiest fix is to just change Assault mode from the broken POS it is now. If one team was defending an objective and the other was dropped in a random location to destroy or capture the objective it would change things a lot.

Scouting becomes important for both teams. Drawing the enemy away from the fight or into an ambush becomes something other than standing in a square hoping someone shows up to defend. Powering down to ambush might actually happen.

Most importantly you eliminate cap rushes where there is not a shot fired.

Agreed. Making it such that only ONE team is defending would greatly improve the game type.

[Joseph Mallan]

Roland, on 13 May 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Agreed. Making it such that only ONE team is defending would greatly improve the game type.

Only if the defending team does not rage quit cause they have to guard a colored box in the sand that is.

[Roland]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 May 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Only if the defending team does not rage quit cause they have to guard a colored box in the sand that is.

Setting up a defense when you know the enemy is going to assault you isn't that terrible... it's the current situation of not knowing whether the enemy team is gonna bother coming to you, or whether you have to go hunt them down, that makes it exceedingly stupid.

Likewise, the assaulting force is then freed up to maneuver however they like, and attack the enemy base from anywhere.

[Shadowsword8]

pow pow, on 13 May 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

To me capping is the same as trolling and you surely can't be having fun, running on your own to cap Also it takes very very very little skill to outrun/outmaneuver a much slower guy in a massive map.

If it takes very very very little skill to cap, what does that say about your own level of skill if you can't prevent it?






Capping exist to give you a reason to split the blob appart and use that thing that some pepople call "Tactics". If you can't be bothered by the necessity to think and maintain situational awareness, you simply don't deserve to win.

[Keifomofutu]

Roland, on 13 May 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Setting up a defense when you know the enemy is going to assault you isn't that terrible... it's the current situation of not knowing whether the enemy team is gonna bother coming to you, or whether you have to go hunt them down, that makes it exceedingly stupid.

Likewise, the assaulting force is then freed up to maneuver however they like, and attack the enemy base from anywhere.

That's a good point in current assault mode once you cross over half way you are all in for base cap or failure. And if you don't get it done quick some light tinkering around the outside of the battle WILL cap you. So those dumb tactically weak frontal assault battles that occur are a result of this. You simply don't have time to find a weak point in the enemy line with probing skirmishing. You simply have to blob up and charge hoping your focus fire is better than theirs.

Quote

If it takes very very very little skill to cap, what does that say about your own level of skill if you can't prevent it?

If it takes very little skill to shoot an unarmed man, what does it say about the unarmed man's level of skill that he can't prevent it?

SEEWUTIDIDTHAR?

Edited by Keifomofutu, 13 May 2013 - 08:41 AM.

[Lostdragon]

Shadowsword8, on 13 May 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

If it takes very very very little skill to cap, what does that say about your own level of skill if you can't prevent it?






Capping exist to give you a reason to split the blob appart and use that thing that some pepople call "Tactics". If you can't be bothered by the necessity to think and maintain situational awareness, you simply don't deserve to win.

There are better ways to split the blob than the galactically stupid mechanic that exists now.

[Livewyr]

Taking a short break from the game to share an anecdote (in addition to the other points)
Just played a game in my centurion with a Gauss on T-Desert. We did lose to a cap, but it was fun.

It started with myself and the other fast mechs going out and finding the enemy. We spotted them in C4 moving into D4 and myself and the other lighter mechs headed them off and engaged, fantastic fight. The battle evolved when the heavier mechs showed up and there was a good angular fight. An enemy commando left the battle and ran to our base- upon seeing the warning, I headed back to base and it was half-capped by the time I managed to get there. I killed the Commando with the guass rifle and ran back to the fight, when I got back all that was left was an enemy atlas that was relatively fresh. Mostly brawler type, his only ranged weapons were two UAC5s.. and so I played a maneuver game and used my range to strip the armor off his frontal CT.

Then I made a mistake, I took a long way around a large Tourmaline patch and he used that opportunity to force my hand. He went to my base and started capping. By the time I got to the base to defend it, it was down to about 10% left and we started a knife fight in a phone booth. I had just about finished him with medium lasers (after my Gauss was dutifully removed) but I had stepped out of the base during the furball and it was capped. It was an incredibly close game- my next laser barrage would have finished him.

The commando forced us to react, but our team communicated and only I went back- the commando died but the fight went back in their favor back at the battle.

I used my maneuvering advantage to bring an atlas to the brink, but he used the base capture mechanic to force me into his realm where he was able to easily remove 65% of my firepower.. and thus the battle was won by an intelligent player using the base capture mechanic to force my hand and grant him victory even while I had the advantage.

I made a mistake, and I paid for it in loss: but that was a good match.

[Frisk]

Base defense is lost tech in Mechwarrior:Online as is Sun Tzu.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. -Sun Tzu

Edited by Frisk, 13 May 2013 - 09:01 AM.

[Keifomofutu]

Sounds like a fight your medium would have won in a TDM mode. Ring around the Rosie base defense is still the dumbest mechanic I've ever seen in a professional game.

Also you didn't even know you were being capped till the commando got to your base. If it had been two lights that match would have ended before it began.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 13 May 2013 - 09:09 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Roland, on 13 May 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Setting up a defense when you know the enemy is going to assault you isn't that terrible... it's the current situation of not knowing whether the enemy team is gonna bother coming to you, or whether you have to go hunt them down, that makes it exceedingly stupid.

Likewise, the assaulting force is then freed up to maneuver however they like, and attack the enemy base from anywhere.

I understand this Roland. I totally agree with you too! But we already have players that Al+F4 when they land on a map they don't want to be on, or if the team is configured "wrong" by their mind. So I can just imagine what will happen when Bob from accounting is on defense and he wants to be the attacker!

[Livewyr]

Keifomofutu, on 13 May 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

Sounds like a fight your medium would have won in a TDM mode. Ring around the Rosie base defense is still the dumbest mechanic I've ever seen in a professional game.

I don't doubt I would've won without bases, but the fact is, the disadvantaged mech used his brain and forced the fight into his domain..

The Atlas had a chance because of the bases, where he would not have otherwise.
I made a judgement mistake (that would have otherwise been of no consequence) and I lost for it.

I'm glad to have had that game.

[Lostdragon]

Frisk, on 13 May 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Base defense is lost tech in Mechwarrior:Online as is Sun Tzu.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. -Sun Tzu

Except that Sun Tzu was fighting real wars where losing probably meant dying. We are playing a game that is supposed to be fun. Scoreless cap rushes are not fun to me and many others.

[Keifomofutu]

Lostdragon, on 13 May 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

Except that Sun Tzu was fighting real wars where losing probably meant dying. We are playing a game that is supposed to be fun. Scoreless cap rushes are not fun to me and many others.

Oh it gets better. Why do we even need to fight at all? Why don't we just uninstall and just go for a walk in the park?

[Merced256]

Ive recently started playing MWO and i do feel that capping in general defeats the purpose of the game in some respects. Theres no real incentive to win except for the w/l ration in your profile, and winning by capping often means less xp and money. All of this has been said before and its all valid. Capping 3 minutes in by circumventing the enemy blob is just trolling the enemy team and your own teams heavys and assaults. But if it makes you feel good about your light build then i guess thats great for you. Personally i'll stick to brawling and putting my skills, or lack of, up against other brawlers.

[Jukebox1986]

Panzerman03, on 12 May 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

You can use your persecuted "I'm not socially accepted" line all you want, but the fact remains that playing capwarrior avoids a game that I'd prefer to play. You try holding my fun hostage and I'll blow your legs off, blue or not.

Be assured, if i see this ingame, i will report you asap.

[Joseph Mallan]

Keifomofutu, on 13 May 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

Oh it gets better. Why do we even need to fight at all? Why don't we just uninstall and just go for a walk in the park?

My wife almost has me convinced to do this! She is much sexier that the lot of you (Ladies.... I am bias!) and she snuggles up to me every night! My Atlas does not. She is winning the argument.

[Lostdragon]

Keifomofutu, on 13 May 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

Oh it gets better. Why do we even need to fight at all? Why don't we just uninstall and just go for a walk in the park?

They need to release some patterns with flowers and unicorns and rainbows as well as a pastel color pallet for this.

[Agent of Change]

RG Notch, on 13 May 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

(1) I thought I was dismissed? Still won't answer why you don't play Conquest if you want to stand in the fabled Red Square to win. I never said anything other than the fact that fighting is fun is my opinion. I simply stated that most people seem to share my opinion.

(2) I only equate your style of cap racing in order to change people's play style as griefing. I understand that some people can't manage to do anything other than run to the Red Sqaure or wander into someone else's crosshairs. That is a failing on their part, not on other players. Somehow I and other players can manage to find other alternatives other than whining on the forums or attempting to grief people into playing our way.

(3) I only post here to break up the echo chamber of the People of the Red Square. Over 80% of matches end without capping so it seems you have your work cut out to ruin others fun. You could always play Conquest where there are loads of Red Squares to stand in and action occurring in more diverse places. But then you couldn't get off on the griefing of those who "won't play your way". Or is wanting people to play a certain way only bad when the other side does it?

(4) Funny I don't see threads posted defending the other way to win Assault matches, oh that's because 80% of the end that way and people seem to like it.

1. You probably are still dismissed I'm not sure I do know you are being dismissive. You'll have to take that up with the person that dismissed you, me i'm dismissing your dismissiveness. You can't say well "i'm just stating my opinion" and then attribute some implicit or explicit ridiculous idea to the opposition for the purposes of dismissing their points. that's called a straw man attack we will explain more in point 2.

2. so you seem to be saying that everyone who caps, starts to cap, or intends to touch the cap before everyone is dead is cap racing, can't play other ways, or somehow doesn't think fight robots is fun. That's a hell of a logical leap there man, while you are making massive wild *** guess can you give me the lottery numbers, you'll probably be just about as right about that as you are on this.

Some how though you managed to miss the massive hypocrisy and irony of this statement "Somehow I and other players can manage to find other alternatives other than whining on the forums or attempting to grief people into playing our way." I only see people on your "side" whining about cappers the rest of us are discussing work around in pretty frank terms. i'm not saying "PPC boats are griefing" I am saying PPC boats have a weakness to be exploited.

3. We could always play both, like with the setting that randomly selects the game type, cause that's kinda what i do. Capping is a strategic play that exploits a weakness in the current meta. Boo hoo, deal with it. When working with a meta you have three choices: Play within it (unoriginal but effective), try to change it (requires figuring out how to exploit the weaknesses of the prevailing King of the hill, and sustain alot of bitching about your tactics if it's working), or quit. Since i like robot fighting, but i don't like 2 shot alpha warrior, I exploit the fact that most of the heavy alpha boats are slow selfish players more worried about personal stats than winning as a team, and cap the **** out of them. Only the desperate or the stupid engage in any fight where they don't hold the advantage if there is an option to change the odds. Flanking, and capping have the potential to change the odds. but keep crying it's funny.

4. This is because no one is crying that killing all the mechs is griefing so defense of it would be stupid (i await your thread defending killing all mechs as a viable winning strategy because I clearly hate robot fighting), but apparently it's ok to cry rivers about capping because it doesn't suit your play style. This all goes back to the accepting personal responsibility thing. At the end of the day if you get capped it's your fault, you could have prevented it, if you think capping is griefing and you get capped, you have griefed yourself. Good job.

[RG Notch]

Agent of Change, on 13 May 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

1. You probably are still dismissed I'm not sure I do know you are being dismissive. You'll have to take that up with the person that dismissed you, me i'm dismissing your dismissiveness. You can't say well "i'm just stating my opinion" and then attribute some implicit or explicit ridiculous idea to the opposition for the purposes of dismissing their points. that's called a straw man attack we will explain more in point 2.

2. so you seem to be saying that everyone who caps, starts to cap, or intends to touch the cap before everyone is dead is cap racing, can't play other ways, or somehow doesn't think fight robots is fun. That's a hell of a logical leap there man, while you are making massive wild *** guess can you give me the lottery numbers, you'll probably be just about as right about that as you are on this.

Some how though you managed to miss the massive hypocrisy and irony of this statement "Somehow I and other players can manage to find other alternatives other than whining on the forums or attempting to grief people into playing our way." I only see people on your "side" whining about cappers the rest of us are discussing work around in pretty frank terms. i'm not saying "PPC boats are griefing" I am saying PPC boats have a weakness to be exploited.

3. We could always play both, like with the setting that randomly selects the game type, cause that's kinda what i do. Capping is a strategic play that exploits a weakness in the current meta. Boo hoo, deal with it. When working with a meta you have three choices: Play within it (unoriginal but effective), try to change it (requires figuring out how to exploit the weaknesses of the prevailing King of the hill, and sustain alot of bitching about your tactics if it's working), or quit. Since i like robot fighting, but i don't like 2 shot alpha warrior, I exploit the fact that most of the heavy alpha boats are slow selfish players more worried about personal stats than winning as a team, and cap the **** out of them. Only the desperate or the stupid engage in any fight where they don't hold the advantage if there is an option to change the odds. Flanking, and capping have the potential to change the odds. but keep crying it's funny.

4. This is because no one is crying that killing all the mechs is griefing so defense of it would be stupid (i await your thread defending killing all mechs as a viable winning strategy because I clearly hate robot fighting), but apparently it's ok to cry rivers about capping because it doesn't suit your play style. This all goes back to the accepting personal responsibility thing. At the end of the day if you get capped it's your fault, you could have prevented it, if you think capping is griefing and you get capped, you have griefed yourself. Good job.

Who's crying? I mean other than the people who get their fragile ego hurt when some one makes comments about how lame cap racing is. I'm not going to bother numbering your post to respond because I don't need to. People of the Red Square seem fine with stereo typing everyone who doesn't want to stand in the Red Square as some simpleton who only runs small engine pop tarts, so I just feel turnabout is fair play. Same as using strawmen. Not everyone who doesn't run to the Red Square to "win" is driving a slow pop tart sniper loaded with PPCs. If you can't manage anything between cap racing and being someone else's target, that's on you.
As I said, I'm not here to defend the play style that leads to 80% of matches ending without a cap. The player base is doing that for me. I'm here to shake up the echo chamber the People of the Red Square are setting up to defend their unpopular cap racing fun ending style.
State your opinion all you want, I know I will. I'm not saying that the majority is right, just that the majority doesn't like cap racing no matter how you try to spin it. In my opinion, if you wanted to fight, or could fight you would fight. I fight in every type of mech I own and while I don't win every time I don't skirt the map edge to avoid action to stand in a Red Sqaure and then run when anyone returns. I don't get off on ruining the game for people who do want to fight like some folks here. I don't have to do anything to change the game to match the way I enjoy playing. I don't chastise the cap racers, because that just feeds them. I just ignore them. I encourage others to react the same. Without the attention they get they will likely get bored and stop. Even if they don't, 4/5 matches are ending with fighting and I earn enough rewards and have enough fun in the fighting that results before they come along and ruin it.
I'm not saying don't cap, do whatever is fun for you. I am saying not to berate them, because it will not change people who are intent on grief and in fact feeds them. I'm just saying that I will play as I like, you play as you like and 4/5 time I'll have fun.