26 replies to this topic

[MrDrunkenMaster]

We have an odd issue. The original weapons numbers were in fact correct. However, at the time of the original weapon stats, the mechanics of the game were broken and this lead to various weapons underperforming and some over performing.

Example : PPC hit detection/fire lag. PPC's used to be a joke as they did not often hit and had over a seconds delay before firing. They changed the numbers, then fixed the mechanics, but didn't change the numbers back.

Second example SRM's : Orignal numbers were correct. However bugs in splash damage meant they were massively over performing. Currently nerfed into being uncompetetive while they fix splash damage. This is a collossal issue as it has removed the sniper counter builds.
In addtion, there are several weapon system other than SRMS that are meant to balance high alpha builds with close range high DPS, like machine guns and flamers, LBX etc which were never implented with the correct numbers and are uncompetitive. This nerfs the hell out of several chassis even if SRMS were fixed as they lack the missile hardpoints to be useful.

Making this worse is the effect of HSR on lighter builds. The game was rebalanced, then the lag shield was removed, and now HSR is active the Raven is just about balanced, but almost all light mechs are pathetic other than maybe JR7 due to its ability to boat mediums lasers. Medium mechs are also severely underperforming now that the lag shield artifacts are gone, and the often discussed issue of the models being oversized is actually apparent. Also the engine caps that were meant to limit lag shields effects now hobble what should be effective builds.

Another issue that is often overlooked is the heat improvements 2x basic pilot skills brought. This meant higher alpha energy builds were more viable with faster cooling and greater heat capacity. Again the numbers were changed, then mechanics were changed, and then numbers stayed the same with no account taken for the mechanics change.

PGI need to much more responsive to balance issues to increase player retention and player spending. If there are only a few chassis worth running, they will make less money as people won't buy mechbays and Hero mechs, but will gravitate towards the limited optimal builds. PGI have lost money from me personally as I have desire to buy and level up a useless chassis.

The current cycle time of two months to fix issues is way too long. The game has lost a great deal of its depth and is losing too many players due to this.
The impression most people have is that PGI can't balance the game and are are losing faith in its future as a tactical shooter with depth.

Another way the poor meta control, affects PGI's revenue stream is I/many others won't invest in a hero mech that could be nerfed into uselessness with a poorly thought out balance/mechanics change and then not fixed for months.

The current March patch does not do enough to address these issues. I believe the changes required could be done in a few hours without affecting other deliverables, as it only only a matter of changing some XML values. The current proposed fixes of tighter LBX cone, increased LRM speed, AC5 range do not address the problems highlighted above and will fix nothing.

The only thing right at the moment is LRM's and SSRMS - these were way over powered for a low skill weapons from the beginning, hence the huge effect ECM had on the game and subsequent rage. The current nerf is very welcome and I think they are in a good place with them making an appearance in games but not dominating the meta.

My prediction for the next patch is a big spike in player numbers which then drops off a cliff as people realise the issues are still there.

TL;DR :
I want to see a game with balance across all mech weight classes, the short/long range game correctly balanced, and DPS and Alpha builds closer.

Short term fixes for the March patch.
Restore original PPC heat values.
Remove engine caps.
Fix DPS weapons numbers ( LBX/ light AC's / Flamers etc ) before making fiddly, programmer intensive changes like critical hit changes and spread.
Fix SRM damage.

Edited by MrDrunkenMaster, 12 May 2013 - 05:00 AM.

[Tennex]

nobody used PPC with their original heat of 10.

but they are overly popular now. i wouldn't say nerf them to TT, because back then nobody used PPCs. But a good in between would be nice


Maybe a nerf of PPC heat from 8 to 8.5. and for the ER PPC an increase from 11 to 12.5

and go from there if more nerfs are needed

Edited by Tennex, 12 May 2013 - 08:27 AM.

[mike29tw]

Tennex, on 12 May 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

lol PPCs did need a buff. from TT. nobody bothered to use them back then

but they are overly popular now. i wouldn't say nerf them to TT, because back then nobody used PPCs. But a good in between would be nice

One thing you have to take into consideration is that, nerfing PPC might have unintended side-effects.

Sure Highlander with 3PPCs and a gauss is OP, but what about Awesomes with 3PPCs? What about Catapult-K2? What about Cicadas with PPC that play as a guerilla sniper? Are they so OP that they deserve a nerf?

Most people just want to see PPCs burned to the ground without really thinking the consequences.

Edited by mike29tw, 12 May 2013 - 08:27 AM.

[Tennex]

mike29tw, on 12 May 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

One thing you have to take into consideration is that, nerfing PPC might have unintended side-effects.

Sure Highlander with 3PPCs and a gauss is OP, but what about Awesomes with 3PPCs? What about Catapult-K2? What about Cicadas with PPC that play as a guerilla sniper? Are they so OP that they deserve a nerf?

Most people just want to see PPCs burned to the ground without really thinking the consequences.

nobody uses stock builds though.

you can't say buff AC20 because the stock hunchback is UP

Edited by Tennex, 12 May 2013 - 08:29 AM.

[Chemie]

It has nothing to do with changing PPC from 10 to 8 (specifically)

They changed a bunch of things on PPC:

1. HSR
2. faster projectile speed
3. lower heat
4. a JJ assault to invite poptarting
5. larger maps supporting high alpha distance warfare.

in addition, they never addressed other issues with PPC like it fires as fast as a SL since it is insta fire versus laser that have to include the discharge time..Why should LL fire slower than PPC?

They just never put these all together in understand the impact on balance and per OP, are way to slow to respond. We are in beta, no one would complain if they were chaning things weekly to see what the right setting were.

My personal vote is to lower projectile speed but what makes my upset is that they do not even plan to TRY in the next patch but instead buff a MG; something that they could easily leave for another 8 months without any impact on the meta.

If past practice is a guide, they will not took speed, heat or cycle time. They will do what they did to gauss (which at the time was the best damage for weight ballistic); they will make it crit easy and blow up easy...hardly balance, especially since for PPC the issue to popsniping so the gauss over-nerf which hurt brawlers, will not change poptarts behaviour

Edited by Chemie, 12 May 2013 - 09:38 AM.

[Fate 6]

Tennex, on 12 May 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

nobody uses stock builds though.

you can't say buff AC20 because the stock hunchback is UP

I think he's saying that Awesomes should be able to boat PPCs whether or not the build is stock. That mech is simply supposed to have a lot of PPCs, so nerfing the PPC itself will just hurt the chassis even more. PPC's arent' completely broken when it's just 1 or 2 (although they're clearly OP, they just don't have the ridiculous Alpha in that small a grouping). PPC's are overpowered, but they are gamebreaking when boated. The Awesome, however, is a very weak chassis, but it should have the ability to boat PPCs relatively well (it can only hold like 4 anyway), as that is what it is meant for. The Stalker should be a missile boat not a PPC boat, so basically we need mech perks that encourage and allow for effective use of certain builds on a chassis.

[mike29tw]

Tennex, on 12 May 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

nobody uses stock builds though.

you can't say buff AC20 because the stock hunchback is UP

lol I totally forgot that there's one stock cicada with PPC.
My main point is that other chassis that doesn't exclusively boat PPCs are not overpowered.

[Tennex]

mike29tw, on 12 May 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

lol I totally forgot that there's one stock cicada with PPC.
My main point is that other chassis that doesn't exclusively boat PPCs are not overpowered.

niether are the chassis that don't exclusively boat AC20s. or any other weapon for that matter. (SRMs?? sSRMS?)

looking at something that is fine when not boated. doesn't justify not nerfing it, if it is OP when boated.

Edited by Tennex, 12 May 2013 - 08:56 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

mike29tw, on 12 May 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

One thing you have to take into consideration is that, nerfing PPC might have unintended side-effects.

Sure Highlander with 3PPCs and a gauss is OP, but what about Awesomes with 3PPCs? What about Catapult-K2? What about Cicadas with PPC that play as a guerilla sniper? Are they so OP that they deserve a nerf?

Most people just want to see PPCs burned to the ground without really thinking the consequences.

That is pretty much what I expect to see happening.

Currently, the PPC finally is "heat efficient" enough to be at least used for alpha strikes. But if you, say, have 3 PPCs, you'd still need 50 heat sinks or so to fire the PPC for a longer amount of time. Before the heat nerf and before the SRM brawler nerf, there was no sweet spot for the PPC. It was too hot, and enemies could easily get close and murderize you with short range weapons. Now, short range weapons lost one of their prominent members (SRMs), making most short range builds considerably weaker, and PPCs have at least low enough heat that you can (when boated), deliver 2 alpha strikes or so in 5 seconds, and you can even hope to use ER PPC.

Rebalance the heat system so that alpha striking isn't easy anymore, increase the heat dissipation, and then see if you need to add or subtract heat from the PPCs.

[Tennex]

Chemie, on 12 May 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

They just never put these all together in understand the impact on balance and per OP, are way to slow to respond. We are in beta, no one would complain if they were chaning things weekly to see what the right setting were.

My personal vote is to lower projectile speed but what makes my upset is that they do not even plan to TRY in the next patch but instead buff a MG; something that they could easily leave for another 8 months without any impact on the meta.

The balance section is 3x more browsed than any other subsection in the forums. more than mechs, more than upcoming features etc.

clearly this is very important to teh player.

but here is PGI addressing balance changes that were needed half a year ago (MGs, ECM, LBX so on). so we can expect the current PPC balance issues to be resolved in another 3 months.

Edited by Tennex, 12 May 2013 - 09:06 AM.

[Coralld]

MrDrunkenMaster, on 12 May 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

We have an odd issue. The original weapons numbers were in fact correct. However, at the time of the original weapon stats, the mechanics of the game were broken and this lead to various weapons underperforming and some over performing.

Example : PPC hit detection/fire lag. PPC's used to be a joke as they did not often hit and had over a seconds delay before firing. They changed the numbers, then fixed the mechanics, but didn't change the numbers back.

Second example SRM's : Orignal numbers were correct. However bugs in splash damage meant they were massively over performing. Currently nerfed into being uncompetetive while they fix splash damage. This is a collossal issue as it has removed the sniper counter builds.
In addtion, there are several weapon system other than SRMS that are meant to balance high alpha builds with close range high DPS, like machine guns and flamers, LBX etc which were never implented with the correct numbers and are uncompetitive. This nerfs the hell out of several chassis even if SRMS were fixed as they lack the missile hardpoints to be useful.

Making this worse is the effect of HSR on lighter builds. The game was rebalanced, then the lag shield was removed, and now HSR is active the Raven is just about balanced, but almost all light mechs are pathetic other than maybe JR7 due to its ability to boat mediums lasers. Medium mechs are also severely underperforming now that the lag shield artifacts are gone, and the often discussed issue of the models being oversized is actually apparent. Also the engine caps that were meant to limit lag shields effects now hobble what should be effective builds.

Another issue that is often overlooked is the heat improvements 2x basic pilot skills brought. This meant higher alpha energy builds were more viable with faster cooling and greater heat capacity. Again the numbers were changed, then mechanics were changed, and then numbers stayed the same with no account taken for the mechanics change.

PGI need to much more responsive to balance issues to increase player retention and player spending. If there are only a few chassis worth running, they will make less money as people won't buy mechbays and Hero mechs, but will gravitate towards the limited optimal builds. PGI have lost money from me personally as I have desire to buy and level up a useless chassis.

The current cycle time of two months to fix issues is way too long. The game has lost a great deal of its depth and is losing too many players due to this.
The impression most people have is that PGI can't balance the game and are are losing faith in its future as a tactical shooter with depth.

Another way the poor meta control, affects PGI's revenue stream is I/many others won't invest in a hero mech that could be nerfed into uselessness with a poorly thought out balance/mechanics change and then not fixed for months.

The current March patch does not do enough to address these issues. I believe the changes required could be done in a few hours without affecting other deliverables, as it only only a matter of changing some XML values. The current proposed fixes of tighter LBX cone, increased LRM speed, AC5 range do not address the problems highlighted above and will fix nothing.

The only thing right at the moment is LRM's and SSRMS - these were way over powered for a low skill weapons from the beginning, hence the huge effect ECM had on the game and subsequent rage. The current nerf is very welcome and I think they are in a good place with them making an appearance in games but not dominating the meta.

My prediction for the next patch is a big spike in player numbers which then drops off a cliff as people realise the issues are still there.

TL;DR :
I want to see a game with balance across all mech weight classes, the short/long range game correctly balanced, and DPS and Alpha builds closer.

Short term fixes for the March patch.
Restore original PPC heat values.
Remove engine caps.
Fix DPS weapons numbers ( LBX/ light AC's / Flamers etc ) before making fiddly, programmer intensive changes like critical hit changes and spread.
Fix SRM damage.

This points out as to why there are so many issues perfectly.

Tennex, on 12 May 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

nobody used PPC with their original heat of 10.

but they are overly popular now. i wouldn't say nerf them to TT, because back then nobody used PPCs. But a good in between would be nice


Maybe a nerf of PPC heat from 8 to 8.5. and for the ER PPC an increase from 11 to 12.5

and go from there if more nerfs are needed

That's not completely true, it wasn't because PPCs were crap, its because of the lag, hit detection, and the buggy state of the game that made PPCs under perform. Now that nearly all the problems are vertualy gone, all the buffs they were given to help compensate has made them over the top, projectile speed increase, heat reduction, a more forgiving heat scale, and now the HSR has made them crazy op.

Fate 6, on 12 May 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

I think he's saying that Awesomes should be able to boat PPCs whether or not the build is stock. That mech is simply supposed to have a lot of PPCs, so nerfing the PPC itself will just hurt the chassis even more. PPC's arent' completely broken when it's just 1 or 2 (although they're clearly OP, they just don't have the ridiculous Alpha in that small a grouping). PPC's are overpowered, but they are gamebreaking when boated. The Awesome, however, is a very weak chassis, but it should have the ability to boat PPCs relatively well (it can only hold like 4 anyway), as that is what it is meant for. The Stalker should be a missile boat not a PPC boat, so basically we need mech perks that encourage and allow for effective use of certain builds on a chassis.

I have come up with a plausible solution to address this in other threads, sadly, it has largly been ignored. So here is my idea below...

Coralld, on 11 May 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Perhaps creating a new stat box for mechs, lets call it "Heavy Hard Points" which shows how many heavy weapons can be placed on a mechs ballistic, energy, and missile hard points as well as how many heavy weapons it can carry over all. The heavy weapon line up would be, Gauss, AC/20, LRM20s, LRM15s, SRM6s, Streaks, LLs, and PPCs.
Some mechs may not be able to have any heavy hard points at all... ECM mechs, I'm looking at you in particular.

So lets take a HBK 4G for example, the heavy hard points would look something like this...
1 HHP (Heavy Hard Points)
Ballistic 0/1
Energy 0/1
Missiles N/A

Now lets try the STK 3F...
4 HHP
Ballistic N/A
Energy 0/2
Missiles 0/2

Or how about the AWS 8Q
6 HHP
Ballistic N/A
Energy 0/6
Missiles N/A

I hope this helps to explains my heavy hard point system.
This would fix the bloat boats that's for sure and make some of the less used mechs more appealing. However, PGI said that they wouldn't go down that rout, but who knows, PGI has flipped flopped on so many things its hard to say.

[Demos]

I agree wth OP, the PPC had issues in the past. With this issues gone (HSR, firing delay, velocity) and the lowered heat it is a murderous weapon.
I do not propose to nerf it in the ground, but a heat increase back to 10/15 OR 9/13.5 combined with lower velocity (~ 1500m/s) would be IMHO acceptable. Heat increase could be combined with slightly lower RoF, like a cooldown of 3.5 sec, as the PPC is currently firing faster than a LL!
So the PPC would be a viable long-range weapon, but not the current "super-weapon". ACs may be firing faster, but need ammo and have therefore the risk of exploding ammo.

Additinally the short-range brawler weapons, especially the the M(P)L should be adjusted. Means increasing SRM damage (1.75 to 2.0) and original heat for the M(P)L, 3 and 4 heat points respectively.
Currently, a brawler cannot compete with a PPC built as in close combat two ML produce the same heat as one PPC, have no pinpoint damage and lower rate of fire.

[mike29tw]

Coralld, on 12 May 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

This points out as to why there are so many issues perfectly.


That's not completely true, it wasn't because PPCs were crap, its because of the lag, hit detection, and the buggy state of the game that made PPCs under perform. Now that nearly all the problems are vertualy gone, all the buffs they were given to help compensate has made them over the top, projectile speed increase, heat reduction, a more forgiving heat scale, and now the HSR has made them crazy op.


I have come up with a plausible solution to address this in other threads, sadly, it has largly been ignored. So here is my idea below...

Your idea does solve the problem, but I'm afraid it will complicate the mech lab rules and further exacerbates the new player experience as MWO is already a game with steep learning curve.

[Coralld]

mike29tw, on 12 May 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

Your idea does solve the problem, but I'm afraid it will complicate the mech lab rules and further exacerbates the new player experience as MWO is already a game with steep learning curve.

I disagree as it would not be complicated at all, yes it would be an added thing for a person to learn but it would be very simple to understand. As have stated it would have its own stat box next to the mechs normal hard point box so its right there for a person to see. Also, the weapons in the list will have the added text of "Heavy Weapon" or just an "H" to make it short, on top of that, the description of said weapons will also state that they can only be mounted on Heavy Hard Points. It wouldn't take some one probably more then a few seconds to figure it out. When compared to most other solutions I have seen people come up with, this solution has all the complexity of putting socks on their feet where as others its like trying to figure out a rubix cube.
However I do understand your concern and am just happy some one acknowledged my idea.

Edited by Coralld, 12 May 2013 - 10:26 AM.

[TexAce]

MrDrunkenMaster, on 12 May 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

We have an odd issue. The original weapons numbers were in fact correct. However, at the time of the original weapon stats, the mechanics of the game were broken and this lead to various weapons underperforming and some over performing.

Example : PPC hit detection/fire lag. PPC's used to be a joke as they did not often hit and had over a seconds delay before firing. They changed the numbers, then fixed the mechanics, but didn't change the numbers back.

Second example SRM's : Orignal numbers were correct. However bugs in splash damage meant they were massively over performing. Currently nerfed into being uncompetetive while they fix splash damage. This is a collossal issue as it has removed the sniper counter builds.
In addtion, there are several weapon system other than SRMS that are meant to balance high alpha builds with close range high DPS, like machine guns and flamers, LBX etc which were never implented with the correct numbers and are uncompetitive. This nerfs the hell out of several chassis even if SRMS were fixed as they lack the missile hardpoints to be useful.

Making this worse is the effect of HSR on lighter builds. The game was rebalanced, then the lag shield was removed, and now HSR is active the Raven is just about balanced, but almost all light mechs are pathetic other than maybe JR7 due to its ability to boat mediums lasers. Medium mechs are also severely underperforming now that the lag shield artifacts are gone, and the often discussed issue of the models being oversized is actually apparent. Also the engine caps that were meant to limit lag shields effects now hobble what should be effective builds.

Another issue that is often overlooked is the heat improvements 2x basic pilot skills brought. This meant higher alpha energy builds were more viable with faster cooling and greater heat capacity. Again the numbers were changed, then mechanics were changed, and then numbers stayed the same with no account taken for the mechanics change.

PGI need to much more responsive to balance issues to increase player retention and player spending. If there are only a few chassis worth running, they will make less money as people won't buy mechbays and Hero mechs, but will gravitate towards the limited optimal builds. PGI have lost money from me personally as I have desire to buy and level up a useless chassis.

The current cycle time of two months to fix issues is way too long. The game has lost a great deal of its depth and is losing too many players due to this.
The impression most people have is that PGI can't balance the game and are are losing faith in its future as a tactical shooter with depth.

Another way the poor meta control, affects PGI's revenue stream is I/many others won't invest in a hero mech that could be nerfed into uselessness with a poorly thought out balance/mechanics change and then not fixed for months.

The current March patch does not do enough to address these issues. I believe the changes required could be done in a few hours without affecting other deliverables, as it only only a matter of changing some XML values. The current proposed fixes of tighter LBX cone, increased LRM speed, AC5 range do not address the problems highlighted above and will fix nothing.

The only thing right at the moment is LRM's and SSRMS - these were way over powered for a low skill weapons from the beginning, hence the huge effect ECM had on the game and subsequent rage. The current nerf is very welcome and I think they are in a good place with them making an appearance in games but not dominating the meta.

My prediction for the next patch is a big spike in player numbers which then drops off a cliff as people realise the issues are still there.

TL;DR :
I want to see a game with balance across all mech weight classes, the short/long range game correctly balanced, and DPS and Alpha builds closer.

Short term fixes for the March patch.
Restore original PPC heat values.
Remove engine caps.
Fix DPS weapons numbers ( LBX/ light AC's / Flamers etc ) before making fiddly, programmer intensive changes like critical hit changes and spread.
Fix SRM damage.

I like your post, but I hope with "remove engine caps" you mean remove the caps for the light ones, and not to remove all engine caps. The engine caps are good, only the ones who were forced to the lights to keep them under 152kph should be gone and will be gone as soon as the Flea with MASC comes out.

Tennex, on 12 May 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

nobody used PPC with their original heat of 10.

Wrong, nobody used PPCs back then because they were bugged as F. If they would have worked back then like they do now with HSR a lot of people including me would have used them. But back then 1 of 3 shots was not registering damage at all and they were flying in all directions but the one you aimed at.

Edited by TexAss, 12 May 2013 - 11:31 AM.

[Tennex]

TexAss, on 12 May 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

Wrong, nobody used PPCs back then because they were bugged as F. If they would have worked back then like they do now with HSR a lot of people including me would have used them. But back then 1 of 3 shots was not registering damage at all and they were flying in all directions but the one you aimed at.

wait PPCs were bugged back then, but somehow you had dual Gauss kittys running rampant? how does that work?

Did netcode somehow only effect PPC and not gauss?? no.

it was the heat.

Edited by Tennex, 12 May 2013 - 12:03 PM.

[Lefty Lucy]

It's funny that people talk about SRM builds as not being alpha builds. SRM builds are absolutely alpha builds that just worked at close range as opposed to long range. While I agree that buffing SRMs is necessary to return short-ranged builds to viability, it would do nothing to solve the alpha-strike dominance that this game encourages.

[Vassago Rain]

PPCs are good now. We had to fight long and hard for that change, and it's not the gun that's the problem, but jumpjets.

Poptarting has got to go, but ruining PPCs won't do this. They'll then boat large lasers and tart with that instead, while the footslogging players who ran PPCs are out yet another weapon.

[Tarl Cabot]

They need to combine all of these threads, no one knows how to continue off of one it looks like.

Increasing heat would not change anything, not on the first few alphas, and that should be telling enough that heat scale is not right.

Increase recycle rate as it is below all the other weapons that fall in that damage range, nevermind the range.

Rework heat scale so that 3-6 ERPPC can not be alpha a few times or rapid fired.

[TexAce]

Tennex, on 12 May 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

wait PPCs were bugged back then, but somehow you had dual Gauss kittys running rampant? how does that work?

Did netcode somehow only effect PPC and not gauss?? no.

it was the heat.

Yes PPCs were bugged and gauss rifles not. look it up. the archive is here, along with the 1000 ppc threads about not working hit registration. I was there as I am since closed beta.