20 replies to this topic

[Colin Thrase]

Good evening

I'm not sure how many people still play the tabletop Battletech game, but for those of you who do, you're probably aware that the "Unseen" mech miniatures previously made available by Ral Partha are no longer available. I was lucky enough to have purchased some of them back in the day, but you can't get them anymore (For those who aren't aware, the "Unseen" mechs are the original versions of the Stinger, Wasp, Phoenix Hawk (and their LAM versions), Marauder, Warhammer, Archer, Rifleman, and several others).

Anyway, I found out from another table-top player that a company called Palladium is now on Kickstarter with a game called "Robotech RPG Tactics". I can't comment whether the game itself is any good (I have never played, nor am I aware of any other miniatures games by this company), but the game comes with plastic figures that match many of the mechs mentioned above.

So if you're still playing the tabletop game, and want to get the original versions of the mechs mentioned above for your games, that game may be a good source for them. When I first saw the Kickstarter site several days ago, they had raised $500k in funding, and today (5/13) they are at $700k. They have added "stretch goals" of what miniatures get included in the boxed set at the $500k, $600k, and $700k funding levels, so I'm assuming they'll continue to add to the included miniatures at every $100k interval.

If you're not familiar with Robotech, here's some conversion notes:

Wasp, Stinger = VF1S, VF1A
Warhammer, Rifleman, Archer = Destroids (not sure which is which)
Phoenix Hawk = Super Valkyrie
Marauder = Zentraedi Officer Pod
Crusader = Armored Valkyrie

* I think some of the other Zentraedi mechs resemble the Ostscout and OstSol, but not an exact match.

Here's a link to the site if anyone is interested:
Robotech RPG Tactics

To clarify: I do not own any Palladium miniatures so I cannot comment on their quality. These are plastic, not Lead or Pewter, and I'm not sure whether they are on the same scale as the original Ral Partha miniatures. I believe you'll have to paint them yourself, based on the pictures shown on the site.

Full Disclosure: I plan on pledging at the 'Battlecry' level, which is $140 for the boxed set plus any unlocked stretch goals - currently 75 miniatures are included (more are possible if they unlock other 'stretch goals'), so if anyone reading this adds to their funding, it potentially unlocks more stretch goals.

For anyone else whose interest in Battletech was originally sparked by watching Robotech as a kid, I hope this makes your day

[Stingray Productions]

good information, thank you for posting this!

[Steinar Bergstol]

Yeah, I'll probably be pledging for this myself, simply because I want unseen minis of what looks to be excellent quality judging by the images available. Yes, it's Robotech. Yes, that means HG indirectly profits from this. Yes, that kinda annoys me, but I don't have an axe to grind with Palladium, and they're the ones making this game. The quality of the minis is enough to win me over. The Marauder/Officer's Battlepod looks gorgeous and the Archer is just amazing. And they are multi part kits, so you can more easily pose them as you prefer when you glue them together.

Oh, and you forgot the Longbow, which is also a Robotech destroid and should also be available in this set. Also: You get fighter and guardian (or in BT terms, aerospace fighter and airmech) minis for the Veritechs, so you get a bunch of LAMs if you wanna use 'em.

As for the OST series of mechs they were based somewhat (and in some cases only very loosely based indeed) on the Zentraedi battlepods.


Ostscout is, more or less, a battle pod with "arms" (if you can call those things arms) stuck on it and the legs turned backwards so it's no longer a chickenwalker as well as some extra bits like a head-dome and having the "chest lasers removed. Doesn't really look like a battlepod anymore IMO.



Ostroc is basically an artillery battlepod, again with the knees of the legs turned around for a regular humanoid stance. The artillery missile racks which on the pod is mounted on top have been moved to the sides to work as arms. Again, not that similar.



Ostsol is a battlepod with (as usual) legs turned around and a head and a couple of arms tacked on. It keeps the bodymounted anti missile lasers of the battlepod, just like the Ostroc.

[Colin Thrase]

Apparently I misspoke. The "stretch goals" that I thought were at every $100k interval are actually more frequent than that.

At $750k they will add 2x VEF-1/VF-1D Valkyrie (not sure which MW mech is equivalent)
At $775k they will add 2x Armored Battloid (I think that's the Battletech mech "Crusader").

They are currently at $748k - that's up from $700k when I looked at it yesterday. Since they're original goal was $70k, it looks like where was a lot more interest than they anticipated.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Two things about this bothers me on all levels. First, Palladium has a track record of not publishing books they have planned and takes the money from their preorders then runs with it. This is because of the owner not being a businessman first. I suggest you Google Palladium Games and Kevin Siembieda to be informed about them.

Secondly, Palladium has a license from Harmony Gold for Robotech RPG and game related things. Harmony Gold got their license from Tatsunoko which they do not own the copyrights to the mech and character designs from SLDF: Macross and Southern Cross. Those rights belong to Studio Nue as they were awarded them by a Japanese Supreme Court decision in 2006. You can legally obtain the Japanese scale miniatures from Japan and Studio Nue gets paid for their designs.I found this on a Google search of Japan Macross miniatures.

http://www.hlj.com/product/YMT00096

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 18 May 2013 - 05:55 PM.

[Wildstreak]

Colin Thrase, on 13 May 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

Wasp, Stinger = VF1S, VF1A
Warhammer, Rifleman, Archer = Destroids (not sure which is which)
Phoenix Hawk = Super Valkyrie
Marauder = Zentraedi Officer Pod
Crusader = Armored Valkyrie

Wasp and Stinger depends on the Head, if it has 4 antenna it is Wasp, 2 antenna would be close to Stinger (only 1 antenna). This could also sub for the 30 ton Unseen Valkyrie.

Destroid Double Pack has 2 Warhammer (has the 6 door launcher on one side) and 2 Rifleman (the one with MWO Blackjack double barreled arms).

Spartan Pack has 2 Archers (doors open on torso) and 2 Longbows (doors open on arms).

Armored Valkyrie needs the rifle type weapon removed.

Valkyrie Wing pack has the perfect head for Stingers and other figure can be used for LAMs.

Glaug Eldare looks hysterical, a Marauder from the waist up with jets that flies like a fighter plane.

Thing is, are these close enough to scale for use?

[Parliment]

they look very close to the right scale

[Slade Deleportas]

Some are some arent.
The Veritechs will all pretty much work for their respective 'Mechs. Same with the Longbow's, Archer's, Rifleman's, and Warhammer's. Sadly the Glaug is pretty big to be a Marauder.

[Znail]

James The Fox Dixon, on 18 May 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

Two things about this bothers me on all levels. First, Palladium has a track record of not publishing books they have planned and takes the money from their preorders then runs with it. This is because of the owner not being a businessman first. I suggest you Google Palladium Games and Kevin Siembieda to be informed about them.

Secondly, Palladium has a license from Harmony Gold for Robotech RPG and game related things. Harmony Gold got their license from Tatsunoko which they do not own the copyrights to the mech and character designs from SLDF: Macross and Southern Cross. Those rights belong to Studio Nue as they were awarded them by a Japanese Supreme Court decision in 2006. You can legally obtain the Japanese scale miniatures from Japan and Studio Nue gets paid for their designs.I found this on a Google search of Japan Macross miniatures.

http://www.hlj.com/product/YMT00096

Problem is that the US doesn't care about any other countries laws. Thus the Japanese ruling has no legal effect in the US.

The scales are exactly the same. That still makes some look slightly wrong as the Robotech mechs are not the same 'real' size. But the models are of very high quality, so that makes up for a lot of issues.

Edited by Znail, 20 May 2013 - 04:29 AM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Znail, on 20 May 2013 - 04:27 AM, said:

Problem is that the US doesn't care about any other countries laws. Thus the Japanese ruling has no legal effect in the US.

The scales are exactly the same. That still makes some look slightly wrong as the Robotech mechs are not the same 'real' size. But the models are of very high quality, so that makes up for a lot of issues.

Actually, it does have an affect in the US. There is this thing called a treaty titled The Berne Convention. Under The Berne Convention, all signatories of the treaty will respect and enforce other country's copyright laws and rulings. The United States and Japan are signatories to The Berne Convention of the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, so there goes that ignorance.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 20 May 2013 - 08:26 PM.

[Nerroth]

I had been under the impression that the rights issue (in Japan) had been re-affirmed to be what they had been originally; that Tatsunoko had the same right to export material from the original SDF Macross series which they had negotiated at the outset, but do not have access to any of its Japanese derivative works (such as Frontier).

I may be mistaken on this, however.


In any case, I feel somewhat conflicted about this project. While I would congratulate those involved on reaching such a lofty funding goal, I can't help but wonder how much of the "Unseen" money that went into it might have otherwise gone into products produced by those who are actually involved in the running of BattleTech as a franchise.

(And in any case, I find myself leaning more towards preferring BT using "home-grown" designs that are built from the ground up to operate in this setting, rather than trying to draw upon designs which, ultimately, were created to work with someone else's intellectual property.)

Edited by Nerroth, 21 May 2013 - 10:03 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

fortunately I still have the original ral patha models first and second casting, of the unseen

Znail, on 20 May 2013 - 04:27 AM, said:

Problem is that the US doesn't care about any other countries laws. Thus the Japanese ruling has no legal effect in the US.

The scales are exactly the same. That still makes some look slightly wrong as the Robotech mechs are not the same 'real' size. But the models are of very high quality, so that makes up for a lot of issues.

Might not care but the fact there are unseen means that the original owners won, and if people are dumb enough to try this tack a second time, will just lose the case the rights and possibly your money ..

There is another alternative name escapes me, right now, but I'm sure people can find it if they really want to look at the figures, I found it about a month or two ago, typing Battle tech miniture in search.

Think companies name is Red somthing or other, the casting look like old ral patha, plus a few of the reseen, ( remodelled enough not to get sued allover again) I remember a victor YAY, a griffon, might have been a shadow hawk, of the reseen casts I thought they went from ok down to meh..but you might have different views

ohh there were some clan mech and some I.S set after the clans invasion but less said about that the better.. including sadly that awfull looking power rangers samurai wannbe Mech..

[C E Dwyer]

Nerroth, on 21 May 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

I had been under the impression that the rights issue (in Japan) had been re-affirmed to be what they had been originally; that Tatsunoko had the same right to export material from the original SDF Macross series which they had negotiated at the outset, but do not have access to any of its Japanese derivative works (such as Frontier).

I may be mistaken on this, however.


In any case, I feel somewhat conflicted about this project. While I would congratulate those involved on reaching such a lofty funding goal, I can't help but wonder how much of the "Unseen" money that went into it might have otherwise gone into products produced by those who are actually involved in the running of BattleTech as a franchise.

(And in any case, I find myself leaning more towards preferring BT using "home-grown" designs that are built from the ground up to operate in this setting, rather than trying to draw upon designs which, ultimately, were created to work with someone else's intellectual property.)

I kind of agree with you, but before the technical handbooks, they were the core of the game with battledroids, and tech first edition, and feature alot in the greydeath legion novels..

so i'm torn between doing the right thing and wanting so see a phoenixhawk, griffon, shadowhawk Warhammer, battlemaster, locust, rifleman stinger, wasp, etc etc..

[Nerroth]

Cathy, on 21 May 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

I kind of agree with you, but before the technical handbooks, they were the core of the game with battledroids, and tech first edition, and feature alot in the greydeath legion novels..

so i'm torn between doing the right thing and wanting so see a phoenixhawk, griffon, shadowhawk Warhammer, battlemaster, locust, rifleman stinger, wasp, etc etc..

There are the "Project Phoenix" re-designs out there, which provide alternatives to the Unseen that are "safe" for BattleTech to use. In fact, one of the new exclusive models to be added to the revised Introductory Box Set is the Project Phoenix take on the BattleMaster.

Most of the other PP designs are listed on IWM's online store.

(Technically, most of the PP designs appeared later in the timeline, but they should still be usable as stand-ins.)

Edited by Nerroth, 21 May 2013 - 02:56 PM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Nerroth, on 21 May 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

I had been under the impression that the rights issue (in Japan) had been re-affirmed to be what they had been originally; that Tatsunoko had the same right to export material from the original SDF Macross series which they had negotiated at the outset, but do not have access to any of its Japanese derivative works (such as Frontier).

I may be mistaken on this, however.


In any case, I feel somewhat conflicted about this project. While I would congratulate those involved on reaching such a lofty funding goal, I can't help but wonder how much of the "Unseen" money that went into it might have otherwise gone into products produced by those who are actually involved in the running of BattleTech as a franchise.

(And in any case, I find myself leaning more towards preferring BT using "home-grown" designs that are built from the ground up to operate in this setting, rather than trying to draw upon designs which, ultimately, were created to work with someone else's intellectual property.)

Tatsunoko only owns the animation itself, but nothing that is contained within the animation. Under the ruling, the mechs and character designs have always been owned by Studio Nue before Tatsunoko got involved. Thus, the only thing Tatsunoko had only the right to export the series as a whole while not granting a license for anything contained within the animation itself.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 21 May 2013 - 03:31 PM.

[Nerroth]

James The Fox Dixon, on 21 May 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

Tatsunoko only owns the animation itself, but nothing that is contained within the animation. Under the ruling, the mechs and character designs have always been owned by Studio Nue before Tatsunoko got involved. Thus, the only thing Tatsunoko had only the right to export the series as a whole while not granting a license for anything contained within the animation itself.

So, would that then mean that FASA ought to have dealt with someone in a position to hold a licence directly from Studio Nue? (From what I gather, FASA's original deal was with a company which had itself contracted with Tatsunoko, which under this ruling shoud not have been permissable.)

Or to put it another way, the "Unseen", under this setup, should never have been included in BattleTech in the first place, in the absence of a deal with the Japanese rights holders?

(The Macross Unseen, at least. I gather that Tatsunoko themsleves hold the rights to at least one of the other series which Unseen 'Mechs were originally sourced from.)

[James The Fox Dixon]

Nerroth, on 21 May 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

So, would that then mean that FASA ought to have dealt with someone in a position to hold a licence directly from Studio Nue? (From what I gather, FASA's original deal was with a company which had itself contracted with Tatsunoko, which under this ruling shoud not have been permissable.)

Or to put it another way, the "Unseen", under this setup, should never have been included in BattleTech in the first place, in the absence of a deal with the Japanese rights holders?

(The Macross Unseen, at least. I gather that Tatsunoko themsleves hold the rights to at least one of the other series which Unseen 'Mechs were originally sourced from.)

From my understanding FASA had a license from Studio Nue directly as evidenced by the fact Studio Nue redid the art for the Unseen for the Japanese edition of BattleTech.

http://www.gearsonli...ies/battletech/

None of The Unseen came from Genesis MOSPEEDA. The designs came from Crusher Joe, Macross, and Dougram. Crusher Joe was not created by Studio Nue, but was licensed from Takara and now available in their original form as of Record Sheets Operation Klondike as are the mechs from Dougram. Some of the mechs from Macross are also reseen as well under new licenses from Studio Nue. Dougram is owned by Studio Nue while Crusher Joe is owned by Nippon Sunrise.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 22 May 2013 - 06:55 AM.

[ian davion]

Apparently because of a confidential settlement, Battletech can never have the right to use the old Macross stuff.
http://battletech.ca...e-want-them-to/

Edit: fixed formating

Edited by ian davion, 28 May 2013 - 10:32 PM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

ian davion, on 28 May 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

Apparently because of a confidential settlement, Battletech can never have the right to use the old Macross stuff.
http://battletech.ca...e-want-them-to/

Edit: fixed formating

Actually, that is incorrect since 2002 Big West filed an injunction against HG for violating Big West/Studio Nue's copyrights that prohibited the importation of Macross products into North America among other abuses. The newer cases from Japan and here take precedent. HG's latest versions of Robotech have been altered to conform with their loss of rights to Macross. This is why Shadow Chronicles does not have any footage or character/mech designs from Macross. Characters from Macross have been completely redesigned to avoid infringing on Big West/Studio Nue's copyrights.

Here is a list of mechs from Macross that are reseen and available.

Falcon
Phoenix Hawk IIC
Ostroc
Warhammer IIC
Rifleman IIC
Marauder IIC

Notice that the Phoenix Hawk IIC is in the list since it is the VF-1S Valkyrie/Veritech. It is only a matter of time before the rest of the Unseen are reseen in their original form in Battletech. HG never played nice with other companies, especially with Big West/Studio Nue on the importation of Macross items to the point that they are unable to do anything as it relates to Macross/Southern Cross. It really didn't help HG when they claimed the trademarks in various countries to the word Macross. I'm taking a wait and see approach in regards to this kickstarter since HG is prohibited from using Macross/SC in derivative form as this game is clearly a derivative of Macross.

[Steinar Bergstol]

That's one thing I never understood about HG. When you know your license is on shaky ground (since you didn't actually license from Big West/Studio Nue, but Tatsunoko instead) why in the world would you risk ******* off the actual holders of the rights to the material you licensed by blocking _their_ ability to sell related materials and products? Why in the _world_ would you go to the step of trying to block them from using the name of their product (Macross) outside Japan and thereby force then to decide it's time to shove your own head up your own legal arse?

What sort of people think something like that is a good idea and why haven't anyone taken the time yet to financially stomp a mudhole in HG given their business practices certainly can't be making them any friends?