36 replies to this topic

[Keifomofutu]

Stoicblitzer, on 14 May 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

Do regular PPCs disable ECM when a hit is scored under 90m? Just wondering as idk.

Yeah they do. So if you fire them on chain your Streaks will be able to keep firing away.

[Kyone Akashi]

Zylo, on 14 May 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

The ECM lights that non-ECM light pilots complained about were the only thing stopping the return of streak cats.

Well, from a Streakcat you can at least run and have a chance at getting away, especially considering that the fix against broken missile splash will .

It still hurts if they catch you with your mechanized pants down (which can happen as easily as turning at a corner), but all in all not as frustrating - at least judging from personal experience. Ultimately, it's being surprised and having half your 'Mech shot to pieces in a single moment versus spotting a 3L and being killed off completely over 10-20 seconds. If I would have to choose, I know what I'd pick.

Ultimately, of course, it is one cheesy element replaced with another, slightly less broken one. I still think Streaks should require re-lock after every salvo just like it works in the tabletop. Would make Streakcats a lot less nasty in close combat, actually turning Lights from preferred prey into their worst enemy!

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 14 May 2013 - 06:55 PM.

[Zylo]

Kyone Akashi, on 14 May 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

Well, from a Streakcat you can at least run and have a chance at getting away, especially considering that the fix against broken missile splash will .

It still hurts if they catch you with your mechanized pants down (which can happen as easily as turning at a corner), but all in all not as frustrating - at least judging from personal experience. Ultimately, it's being surprised and having half your 'Mech shot to pieces in a single moment versus spotting a 3L and being killed off completely over 10-20 seconds. If I would have to choose, I know what I'd pick.

Ultimately, of course, it is one cheesy element replaced with another, slightly less broken one. I still think Streaks should require re-lock after every salvo just like it works in the tabletop. Would make Streakcats a lot less nasty in close combat, actually turning Lights from preferred prey into their worst enemy!

Even with a new lock required each time, most streak cat pilots wouldn't have an issue and light mechs would still be very badly damaged and possibly killed. I know the 2 days I played a streak cat before ECM was added I would just 1-shot most lights by firing all 6 streaks at once, usually as the light mech tried to run away.

If the locking time because a serious issue you might see some 2x SRM6 + 4x SSRM2 A1 designs.

[Rat of the Legion Vega]

If streak cats start showing up again, it's just another reason to NOT play this game for another few months. Perhaps it's time for a dedicated spectator mode where I can get perverse enjoyment from watching streak cats fighting Poptarts while a PPC/streak Stalker snipes them all to death. Goodness knows I have 0 incentive nowdays to actually PLAY in such matches.

[Ghost Rider LSOV]

627, on 14 May 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

Spoiler

My stomach is ready:

Yum!

[Kyone Akashi]

Zylo, on 14 May 2013 - 11:26 PM, said:

Even with a new lock required each time, most streak cat pilots wouldn't have an issue and light mechs would still be very badly damaged and possibly killed. I know the 2 days I played a streak cat before ECM was added I would just 1-shot most lights by firing all 6 streaks at once, usually as the light mech tried to run away.

Then those Lights must've already been damaged. I have never been "one-shot" by a Streakcat, although it really does not take much to be killed by one of those beasts. Two, maybe three salvos? Given the short reload time, that's very little time.

But I still take "possibly killed" over "almost certainly killed" by a 3L-cRaven or 2D Streakmando.

Zylo, on 14 May 2013 - 11:26 PM, said:

If the locking time because a serious issue you might see some 2x SRM6 + 4x SSRM2 A1 designs.

I think that'd actually lower their overall efficiency, even though it would likely enable them to do some damage at any point in time. Still, it's an even more circumstancial setup that'd allow pilots to adapt. Does the opponent have 6 SSRM-2? Get in close, keep him busy in the knife fight. Does he have 2 SRM-6 and 4 SSRM-2? That means he only is 66% as scary as a true Streakcat. Engage from range and try to stay at least 300m away.

[edit] Of course, lowering the Cat's turn radius would be yet another way to deal with the issue. I recall this was a regular complaint back then, too.

Or we address the point that Streaks should have their own maximum turn radius, thus making them less reliable at close range. It's the alternative that would have also made ECM-Lights less scary, and that was proposed a number of times back then. We had Streaks missing their target in CB already, after all.

And lastly, we could also make the missile pods even more vulnerable to enemy fire, which would punish both Streak- as well as Splatcats for moving a platform designed for long range support this close to their target. Two birds with one stone? Maybe this could be coupled with the missile bay door feature, almost guaranteeing an ammo explosion if the pod is hit when they are open. Would only be realistic, compared to the miniscule difference it makes now.

... there are a number of ways to potentially deal with this, come to think of it.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 15 May 2013 - 03:33 AM.

[Kitane]

As long as ECM gives immunity to LRMs, it's insane to ask for more nerfs of Catapults and force them to be LRM-only carriers.

PGI's knee-jerk decisions with ECM made the main role of Catapult very difficult and no amount of lame band-**** is going to change that until they completely remove ECM's ability to shield mechs from missiles

Catapults are laughably easy to counter in brawler range.

Edited by Kitane, 15 May 2013 - 05:37 AM.

[Kyone Akashi]

Kitane, on 15 May 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

Catapults are laughably easy to counter in brawler range.

That's referring to the SRM/SSRM-boats? I'm fairly sure that a large number of players feels differently. If the brawling-focused Splash- and Streakcats were so "laughably easy to counter" in brawls, nobody would have played this unintentional loadout variant back then and it would not have been as popular nor as feared, no?

I do agree about the ECM, though, and how the current implementation pushes a number of BattleMechs out of roles where they should shine - including the Catapult as a dedicated long range artillery unit. This is definitively something where I also hope for improvement.
It's funny how so many things that are (subjectively) going wrong seem connected to each other, though.

[Kitane]

Kyone Akashi, on 15 May 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

That's referring to the SRM/SSRM-boats? I'm fairly sure that a large number of players feels differently. If the brawling-focused Splash- and Streakcats were so "laughably easy to counter" in brawls, nobody would have played this unintentional loadout variant back then and it would not have been as popular nor as feared, no?

I do agree about the ECM, though, and how the current implementation pushes a number of BattleMechs out of roles where they should shine - including the Catapult as a dedicated long range artillery unit. This is definitively something where I also hope for improvement.
It's funny how so many things that are (subjectively) going wrong seem connected to each other, though.

Catapult is the easiest mech to kill at close range, thanks to the stupid cockpit. And those ears have miserable survival rate in meta full of PPC snipers.

Streakcats used to do 30 damage per salvo, now they do 18 distributed to LT/RT/CT + splash damage with CT eating splash from everything. We don't know the future damage value and we expect splash damage to be fixed. Even the original 30 points per salvo is not going to be a big deal if it does something like 11 points to LT, 12 to CT, 11 to RT every 3.5s

Any 65t or higher mech should be able to dish out a lot more damage under 270m range and if he is losing to Streakcat, he really needs to work on his aim. Only lights and light mediums have a good reason to fear Streakcat.

Splatcats are entirely another matter in terms of firepower and the main reason why I don't want a rollback to pre-nerf values of SRMs.

Edited by Kitane, 15 May 2013 - 09:11 AM.

[Kyone Akashi]

So your "laughably easy" comment was just referring to Heavies and Assaults? Okay, that's a different story then. I'm talking from the perspective of a Light and Medium pilot, hence my suggestion to limit the Cat's turn radius as to better get behind their backs in knife-fighting.

The "ears'" survival rate is still too high for a second line fire support 'Mech, though, at least if we're talking traditional combat. I fully understand the desire to shift the Catapult's role from a rear to a front line fighter as a reaction to the dreadful effect that ECM has on lock-on weapons, but ultimately I believe that both these things should be "fixed" in favour of a more enjoyable gameplay environment for the entire community.

No SSRM monopoly for ECM Lights, no LRM Catapults being rendered useless due to jammed targeting, no SRM- or SSRM-boating Catapults hiding behind hills or amidst buildings with either "the hammer" or 100%-hit-Light-killers. Then we just need to address the jump-sniping by making it harder to aim in the air and we're good? Let's throw in knockdowns by heavier weight classes while we're at it, too.
Of course, those are merely my own thoughts regarding a gameplay experience close to the earliest weeks of CB, but I do believe that this would usher in a return to the "traditional" close range brawling between Mediums, Heavies, and Assaults, with flanking Skirmishers and dedicated fire support units in the back.

[Vassago Rain]

Kitane, on 15 May 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

Catapult is the easiest mech to kill at close range, thanks to the stupid cockpit. And those ears have miserable survival rate in meta full of PPC snipers.

Streakcats used to do 30 damage per salvo, now they do 18 distributed to LT/RT/CT + splash damage with CT eating splash from everything. We don't know the future damage value and we expect splash damage to be fixed. Even the original 30 points per salvo is not going to be a big deal if it does something like 11 points to LT, 12 to CT, 11 to RT every 3.5s

Any 65t or higher mech should be able to dish out a lot more damage under 270m range and if he is losing to Streakcat, he really needs to work on his aim. Only lights and light mediums have a good reason to fear Streakcat.

Splatcats are entirely another matter in terms of firepower and the main reason why I don't want a rollback to pre-nerf values of SRMs.

Just shoot the ears, brah!

[Ngamok]

Kyone Akashi, on 15 May 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

So your "laughably easy" comment was just referring to Heavies and Assaults? Okay, that's a different story then. I'm talking from the perspective of a Light and Medium pilot, hence my suggestion to limit the Cat's turn radius as to better get behind their backs in knife-fighting.

The "ears'" survival rate is still too high for a second line fire support 'Mech, though, at least if we're talking traditional combat. I fully understand the desire to shift the Catapult's role from a rear to a front line fighter as a reaction to the dreadful effect that ECM has on lock-on weapons, but ultimately I believe that both these things should be "fixed" in favour of a more enjoyable gameplay environment for the entire community.

No SSRM monopoly for ECM Lights, no LRM Catapults being rendered useless due to jammed targeting, no SRM- or SSRM-boating Catapults hiding behind hills or amidst buildings with either "the hammer" or 100%-hit-Light-killers. Then we just need to address the jump-sniping by making it harder to aim in the air and we're good? Let's throw in knockdowns by heavier weight classes while we're at it, too.
Of course, those are merely my own thoughts regarding a gameplay experience close to the earliest weeks of CB, but I do believe that this would usher in a return to the "traditional" close range brawling between Mediums, Heavies, and Assaults, with flanking Skirmishers and dedicated fire support units in the back.

To be honest on your "ears" survival rate. Any Catapult that I see in a brawl gets the ears shot off pretty easily. It's only 40 armor. Not both at once mind you. But they do come off easy. And it's been recent this has started happening because of the PPC heat. You are right that in the past, they didn't because ballistic weapons did that work and not PPCs or laser and partly thanks to HSR.

Edited by Ngamok, 15 May 2013 - 10:49 AM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

TBH I'd rather fight 8 Streak Cats rather than 8 PPC boats

[PanzerMagier]

Isn't it pathetic to how we fondly look back at previous broken cheese builds and say "damn I'd rather fight that then the ****** meta we're sitting now". I am disappointed.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

PanzerMagier, on 15 May 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

Isn't it pathetic to how we fondly look back at previous broken cheese builds and say "damn I'd rather fight that then the ****** meta we're sitting now". I am disappointed.

You're right. We should all strive to want total balance across all systems, but chances of that happening really dont seem well. Maybe the 21st patch will get us closer. As much as I hated A1 Streakcats, A1 Skillcats, and 5M Nukeboats nothing is worse than PPC poptarts and their other PPC counterparts thus far.

[Zolaz]

I welcome the Streak Cats to ...

Just waiting for the streaking part.

[Zylo]

PanzerMagier, on 15 May 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

Isn't it pathetic to how we fondly look back at previous broken cheese builds and say "damn I'd rather fight that then the ****** meta we're sitting now". I am disappointed.

It just shows that no matter how broken game balance was in the past PGI will find some way to break it even more in the future.

I guess MGs and flamers will probably become OP in some future patch. I can't wait to see posts about some OP 6x MG Jagermechs or 9x flamer Hunchies.