87 replies to this topic

[jeffsw6]

Ngamok, on 16 May 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

I saw jeffsw6 on Frozen City in his Atlas and was like, I need to kill him !! We traded blows but someone else got the kill. I was sad.

Frozen City always makes me sad too.

[I am]

jeffsw6, on 16 May 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

TL;DR: You can waste 10 tons of AC/2 ammo by missing if you want, too. That doesn't mean the AC/2 is broken, it means you are wasting ammunition.

Your description, above, is not how games in my LRM boat go. I don't waste ammunition and I only carry 7 tons. If I use it all, chances are, I have carried my team and will be burning down some armor-less opponents with my MPLs until I die or win.

If I want to take a pot-shot at an enemy using LRMs I will fire one launcher, not all 4-5. That's how I conserve ammo. Suppressing enemies is important but it doesn't take 60 missiles hitting a rock to do it.


Which thing are you asking if I really believe?

I don't agree with your view that ballistics are sub-par "pound for pound." The highest heat/dmg ballistic, the AC/2, does 2 dmg/heat and has a very long range; and it does 4 DPS. That's better heat efficiency and DPS than any laser, better DPS than any missile pack, and the only missile launchers that are better dmg/heat (on paper) is SRM6, LRM15, and LRM20. I say "on paper" because we know AC/2 rounds are easier to aim than SRMs and have greater range; and LRMs have many counters.

The cost you pay for all the benefits of the AC/2, and other ballistics, is tonnage and limited ammunition.

I have an Excel spreadsheet including the weight of all weapons AND how much ammo for that weapon I feel I need to carry to use it effectively. For example, I figure AC/2 at 2 tons ammo each, UAC/5 at 2.5 tons each, based on my play-style. The spreadsheet has a DPS/Ton column which it calculates based on that. Ballistic weapons are generally lower than lasers in DPS/ton but better than missiles. However, they generate far less heat, meaning you can be effective in a brawl longer.

I believe there need to be more small ballistics, lighter than 6 tons; but I do not think that ballistics as a class are inferior to lasers (or missiles.) I form my opinion by playing a wide variety of mechs (admittedly, most of them are heavy and assault) and by using my spreadsheet. It's not like I am just basing my whole opinion on arithmetic without play-experience in mechs with guns.

So my 6 MC worth is, your statement is overly-broad and largely incorrect.

Well said Jeff. I was refering to the LRMs are not skill-less statement, but based on your description, and the other guys testimonial of fail, maybe some amount of skill is involved. I would assume you have seen those funny youtube videos of the LRM boat guys racking over 1000 damage with little to no effort. It is things like that, and my own ability to score well with them, that has formed that opinion. However I concede that you have made me pause for thought. I guess there are some good LRM boaters, and bad LRM boaters. Indirect fire, especially with a lock on recticle and auto aim flight pathing, in my mind, just isn't nearly as challenging as aiming, leading, and such. I am sure you have had kills with your LRM's which felt absolutely effortless. But I will concede that it sounds like you have a fair amount of skill using them, and that my own opinion needs to evolve.

Let me ask you this Jeff. Do you think they need a buff, or are they fine as is? I believe of all the posters, perhaps you could give us an unbias perspective.

And, do you want the LRM-pocalypse to return? That is what I fear, when I see alot of "LRMs need buffed" threads, and little to no counter arguments.

Edited by I am, 16 May 2013 - 12:02 PM.

[Ngamok]

I am, on 16 May 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

Well said Jeff. I was refering to the LRMs are not skill-les statement, but based on your description, and the other guys testimonial of fail, maybe a small amount of skill is invovled. I would assume you have seen those funny youtube videos of the LRM boat guys racking over 1000 damage with little to no effort. It is things like that, and my own ability to score well with them, that has formed that opinion. However I concede that you have made me pause for thought. I guess there are some good LRM boaters, and bad LRM boaters. Indirect fire, especially with a lock on recticle and auto aim flight pathing in my mind jsut isn't nearly as challenging as aiming, leading, and such. I am sure you have had kills with your LRMs which felt absolutely effortless. But I will concede that it sounds like you have a fair amount of skill using them.

Let me ask you this Jeff. Do you think they need a buff, or are they fine as is? And, do you want the LRM-pocalypse to return? That is what I fear, when I see alot of "LRMs need buffed" threads, and little to no counter arguments.

TBH, LRMs are so easy to counter if you are 1000m away because once you see the message, as slow as they are, you can hide behind a building in the next map. But is someone is shooting them at you at say 300m, GG. The speed change I think will be welcomed.

[I am]

That is how I use mine. Im not full LRM boat, but a DDC w an ac20 and lasers too. I tend to keep them at about 250 meters from me, and the LRMs are like white on rice at that range. Also if they're near cover, could step away to avoid them, I hold them. Also I have them on chain fire and only trigger the 2nd and 3rd lrm 15 when I am sure they will be landing. I am picturing guys trying to get theta on tourmaline, with no cover within 1000 meters to save their life. If they are caught in that situation, they are as good as dead.

When I said they are easy mode, and I still believe largely they are, I wasn't taking into account skill and fore-sight in ammo conservation, I just bring alot, and conserve through chain fire as stated. I think the guy who goes pure LRM, and lobs them at 1000 meters, well he's jsut bad @ mechs, and no amount of buffs short of ushering the LRM-pocalypse back in, will make them useful to him.

[jeffsw6]

I am, on 16 May 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

That is how I use mine. Im not full LRM boat, but a DDC w an ac20 and lasers too.

I've been tempted to try that build for a while. For perspective, my LRM boats are an LRM60 Stalker with 5 MPLs, and an LRM70 Stalker with 1 LL 2 ML (both have tags and a few extra DHS, obviously.)

I am going to configure my AS7-D-DC like yours and try it out for a few days as it does sound like it might be neat. I feel there may be QQ from my teammates but I want to see how it plays vs my Stalkers.

And I want to mention, the Catapult is a terrible LRM boat. It is trash for that. If there are posters on this thread QQing about LRMs being under-powered because they suck in their Catapult LRM boat, they need to change mechs.

Moving on...

I am, on 16 May 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

Let me ask you this Jeff. Do you think they need a buff, or are they fine as is? I believe of all the posters, perhaps you could give us an unbias perspective.

And, do you want the LRM-pocalypse to return? That is what I fear, when I see alot of "LRMs need buffed" threads, and little to no counter arguments.

Thanks for the compliment. I don't want the LRM-pocalypse to return, but I believe LRMs need smart buffing, not just a raw damage increase.

Here is my issue. LRMs should be useful as a side-weapon AND as a boated weapon, and in neither case, should they be over- or under-powered. A lot of mechs come with one LRM launcher (some Dragons have LRM10, Atlases have LRM20, etc.) by default and they are just dead weight right now, because LRMs are virtually useless when not boating them, and playing the whole match to use them effectively.

That's why I suggested that the smaller launchers, LRM5 and LRM10, should get faster missiles; while the bigger LRM15 and LRM20 missiles should go slower. I don't know if they should require different ammunition but I think it should just use the same generic "LRM ammo."

Do I think they need more damage? Yes, I think LRM damage is about 50% too low. I also think they miss too much on fast-moving mechs, but the devs are addressing that soon by raising their speed slightly. They will still only be really useful when boated, though; and I do not think that is getting the most game-play-variety out of this weapon system.

I have also floated the idea of changing LRM ammunition / ton as a way to make boating harder, if their damage is increased "too much."

I think that guy QQing that he only does 200dmg in his LRM boat just needs more practice. LRMs aren't easy-mode and they shouldn't be. Anybody going through 10 tons of LRMs (that's 1,800 missiles) and only doing 200dmg is just playing poorly.

[I am]

Jeff, you will like the build. I run it non-artemis and like I said, stay with the pack. Doesn't have to be an ac20, could go Gauss, but I prefer AC20 so I am more durable when close quarters brawling starts. (Also seem better at leading with AC20s, and love how they sound, but you can skimp on heatsinks if you go Gauss.) Eventually you will run dry on LRM's, then you just close in. (usually at that point, I take point, since my mates are assumably roughed up by then.) One of my favorite builds, and the only mech I'll play LRM's on. More so, I'm definately a brawler at heart. Hope you have fun with it. Wouldn't mind some feedback on how it performs for you.

Edited by I am, 16 May 2013 - 02:43 PM.

[jeffsw6]

I had trouble deciding on a build for the LRM AS7-D-DC. Right now I have AC/20, 2 tons ammo, 3xLRM15+A, 4 tons ammo, TAG, LL, STD300, 12 DHS, with Endo. It just doesn't feel effective because I lack the extra hard-points of a Stalker. ECM is nice and I guess I'm stuck in the middle of my team's mob in this configuration, which is good for them; but so far, I dislike playing the Atlas this way.

I will give it a couple dozen matches and let you know if I warm up to it. I couldn't deal without a TAG given the amount of ECM in the game.

[I am]

I don't use tag, and I think you probably have more armor than I do. Here let me give you my build.

I use a std 325. I find that when it comes to getting circled, i need a little more nimble-ness, so I can counter circle for ac20 shots. I do a 350 version too, with a little less ammo, and maybe one less heatsink. One day I ran it with 10 DHS's and it wasn't that bad. 11 is ok too, but I have it at 12 atm, with all the tourmaline I have been seeing in it. I also do a version with the 300 STD but on that I use 2 LL, and have 3-4 ton LRM, 1-2 ton ac20. Real careful w my ac20 shots with all the builds. The LL version, I stay at 12 DHS minimum. I shave more armor for that build.

Weapons:

2 ML
1 AC 20
3 LRM 15

I put 1 LRM ammo and 1 AC20 ammo in each foot. That way if I lose one leg, one in 40 games, I havnt lost too much of one type of ammo. I use 12 DHS, 10 plus two in the engine. Honestly I can run it with 11 or 10. If you ranged you're just firing the LRM's, if your close just the ac20 and ML, the middle sweet spot its just the ac20 and LRMs.

The rest of the ammo goes in the arms. Two in the right arm, thats ac20 and LRM. The other three go in the left arm. I always lose the right side first, so I have put all 4 excess LRM ammo tons on the left before, leaving just one ac20 ammo on the right.

Max armor all around on the core. 22 on the back, left right and center. 102 CT front, 62 on the sides. If I am doing a closing rush and I am using LRM as I close, then bring the ac20 and meds online, I may overheat so I like to be able to take a few hits. It's the arms and legs I am sure many will take issue with. My arms are 46, my legs, 39. Can't tell you the last time I lost one due to dmg, when I lose an arm it is because I lost a side torso, thus I justify it in my head by saying, no matter how much armor I would have put there, it would have been lost just the same. Again, being legged is rare.

It is probably a terribad build in the eyes of pro Mech Warriors, but it works for me. In my fast 350 version I play it like a wrecking ball, and in my slower 300 version w LLs and alot less ammo, I really use the LLs mostly, and only bring ac20s online for close brawls, and LRMs for far targets. I see LRM firing at 1000 M as a waste of ammo for me, and will play tight on my ammo, saving it for sure shots.

I have never driven a stalker. I wont play mechs that I think look stupid, and it does to me. Weird? I am the same way in WoT, that IS7 is ugly as sin.

But ya it is a fun build, you have something for alot of situations, but are a master of none. Situational awareness, patience, and a willingness to play point man at times make it work for me. Also, being able to tag a circling Raven with just the ac20 can be a must at times.

Edit:

Just ran it a few times, still liking it but sometimes I hate being conservative with my ac20. A modded ver would be with 4 ac20. Either shave 8 of each arm and leg, go with 900 LRMs, or drop to 11 DHS. I went with 11 DHS. Not really a heating issue till I bring the meds online, and if I am already using the other 2 weapon systems when I do that.

Think I might do the 2 LL version later, but hafta remember how I pulled it off. Think I had a ton or 2 less armor, 3 ton less LRM, 2 ton less AC20, and maybe even 11 DHS, I'll hafta see. If you want to get frisky too, take the ECM off. Not like it makes much difference when LRM spam isn't the norm. I am sure you are well practiced in dodging LRMs in non-ecm mech's. That build runs hot I remember heating can be a major issue. Up close I either use the 2 LLs, or ac20, and only both when I am confident it will be a kill shot. Alternatively, the STD 275 can open up all kinds of options. I have played with that too. I like tinkering in the old lab.

Edited by I am, 16 May 2013 - 05:49 PM.