140 replies to this topic

[Fate 6]

Zolaz, on 15 May 2013 - 12:19 AM, said:

Yo dude ... you were in a Spider. If you dont want to be one shotted get a real mech or dont stand still. Lights get one shotted.

You must pilot only Heavies and Assaults, and think you're really good because you pilot a bigger mech.

The REAL mechs are the mediums and lights, everything bigger than that is just people who want to have big damage numbers or live longer so they can call other people bad. Mediums and lights are supposed to be the core of Inner Sphere warfare. After real weight limitations come in and it takes you 15 minutes to find a game as a Heavy or Assault come to the forums and complain. I'll be here waiting to tell you to play a REAL mech so you can find a game.

[Syllogy]

Fate 6, on 16 May 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

You must pilot only Heavies and Assaults, and think you're really good because you pilot a bigger mech.

The REAL mechs are the mediums and lights, everything bigger than that is just people who want to have big damage numbers or live longer so they can call other people bad. Mediums and lights are supposed to be the core of Inner Sphere warfare. After real weight limitations come in and it takes you 15 minutes to find a game as a Heavy or Assault come to the forums and complain. I'll be here waiting to tell you to play a REAL mech so you can find a game.

Pilot an AWS-9M and tell me how easy it is to wreck face vs. piloting a RVN-3L or JR7-F.

[Shadowsword8]

Prezimonto, on 16 May 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

...
Aaaand again. I don't mind taking a one shot death... if I have a fair chance to identify a threat. 800m, under cover/jj'ing, 2000m/s travel speed for 50 to 60 damage pinpoint alpha... it's hard to avoid, to even know it's coming if the mech hasn't pinged on your radar.

More like 35-40 damage for the average sniper mech, exagerating won't serve your point. 5-6 PPC builds are nearly extinct.
I find the rest to be hard to swallow. I typically play as a sniper (by choice, not because it's the FOTM. I already was a sniper long before poptart cataphracts even appeared), and I can tell you this: At range, if a sniper has a choice between a light mech that don't run in a straight line, and a bigger mech, the sniper will always aim at the big mech. Better a sure shot that will weaken one of the enemies that running a 95% chance to miss and waste heat and ammos.

Now if the ligth mech has a predictable trakectory, or if he rush blindly forward and is the only target in view, that's another matter...

The rest of your argument can be debunked by situationnal awareness. If you need your radar to know what place is safely under cover and what place has probable enemy presence, you don't know the map well enough, and don't have enough experience fighting on it.

Quote

If it's at close enough range that I could make an active choice, then it's my fault. dual AC20's... can't quite kill a full armor spider in one shot.. .and they require that the light pilot be dumb enough to engage and/or the jager/k2 be good enough to close to engagement range (or corner camp on a light route) both viable tactics.

Dual Gauss.... 30damage... I can take one hit and it travel's slower... fine.

Essentially, every AC and laser build... even boats can't achieve what PPC boats currently can, not in one shot at that kind of range.... it's frustrating, and I maintain poor mechanics that it's even allowed to happen.

I appreciate the good conversation going on.

If you're fine with a dual AC20 damage on a spider, then you're fine with 98% of the snipers out there (<=40 alpha), so there's no problem...

[Prezimonto]

@apoc1138
You are not being fair.

PPC's were fairly well balanced until HSR, missile nerfs, and the Highlander.
HSR made hitting moving targets much easier.
missile nerfs essentially removed 1/3 of viable options to build a mech.
The Highlander added long range energy/ppc poptarting as gravy on top.

Also, essentially you scoff at math in complete ignorance. Mustrum is doing a fine job. He did the post analysis to understand why the model failed... and it's not the actual weapon numbers it was a play style estimate change, which is something that will only shake out of experimental data. He then went and fixed his estimates. This is good analysis.

@shadowsword: The difference is the ability to obtain situation awareness combined with 5 to 6ppc strikes. And you say they're extinct... maybe in an ELO above mine, but certainly not in the matches I play. And before 2 days ago.. I agreed with you... and then this happened. If I wasn't invested in the game and was trying it out... I'd probably take that experience and not play until some information came out that the game had been better balanced. It's just not fun to be one shot in a game where most mechs can and do take a pounding to die... where you die faster than the time it to find a match and start moving.

Edited by Prezimonto, 16 May 2013 - 08:29 AM.

[Hammertrial]

Syllogy, on 16 May 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

Pilot an AWS-9M and tell me how easy it is to wreck face vs. piloting a RVN-3L or JR7-F.

I'll take a skilled 9m vs a skilled 3l/jenner F anytime.

Same damage, 9m gets a huge range and pinpoint. Takes 2 shots to core either light.

[Escef]

Prezimonto, on 16 May 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

The Highlander added long range energy/ppc poptarting as gravy on top.

It did?

[Prezimonto]

sure... it added moar!

[Escef]

Prezimonto, on 16 May 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

sure... it added moar!

Ok, so we go from just straight adding it to adding more of it?

Oh, hey, jumping Trebuchets also predated the HGNs. We also had jumping lights.

In short, all the HGN did was bring an established tactic to the assault class.

[Deathlike]

The Highlander is literally the Cataphract-3D with 3 different poptart additions (the missile boat Highlander is more of a combo poptart). This should have been very apparent.

Edited by Deathlike, 16 May 2013 - 01:21 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Prezimonto, on 16 May 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

PPC's were fairly well balanced until HSR, missile nerfs...

Quoted for truth. I disagree with the Highlander bit enough that I didn't quote that part, but HSR caused PPC accuracy to shoot through the roof, which combined with missile damage being cut out at the knees made the weapon both a premier long range gun and a premier brawling weapon.

Thankfully PGI took a suggestion that I've been offering repeatedly of late, namely moving the PPC charge time to 4s, and missile changes are imminent. We'll see what happens once both sets of changes are live.

[Roland]

PPC's weren't balanced prior to HSR.

They were simply broken for much of the game's user base. People with poor pings couldn't fully leverage them.

For folks who had a good ping, they were almost as devastating as they are now. You likely just didn't run into as many players that actually used them back then though.

Suggesting that weapons were somehow "balanced" by virtue of bugged out netcode is nonsensical.

[Hotthedd]

Hellcat420, on 14 May 2013 - 09:38 PM, said:

light mechs are not supposed to be able to stand up to the firepower of larger mechs.

He wasn't standing up to the larger mechs, he was sniped. Magic convergence Alphas are the problem.

[blinkin]

Roland, on 16 May 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

PPC's weren't balanced prior to HSR.

They were simply broken for much of the game's user base. People with poor pings couldn't fully leverage them.

For folks who had a good ping, they were almost as devastating as they are now. You likely just didn't run into as many players that actually used them back then though.

Suggesting that weapons were somehow "balanced" by virtue of bugged out netcode is nonsensical.

it is very absurd, but we do tend to balance things within the scope of the environment.

repair and rearm was a balancing feature that was removed. when that happened whole new series of balance issues popped up.

light mechs had a lag shield that made them almost impossible to hit. so hit boxes were adjusted, streak missiles were allowed, and rates of fire were increased. the lag shield advantage has been severely reduced and the equipment in game must be adjusted for this new environment.

it is difficult to design around a theoretical environment, and players throw hissy fits when everything isn't balanced nao!.

[Sephlock]

Spiders should absolutely be DISINTEGRATED by Alpha strikes.

[Merced256]

This game is a disgrace in its current state. Its literally ppc warrior online. Every map turns in to across the map alpha strikes over and over and over. While a spider should probably get one or two shot by well placed shots; its the fact that everything outside of a assault mech is being melted by the same ******** thing just as fast. Stupid as hell.

[Shiro Matsumoto]

Belorion, on 15 May 2013 - 02:28 AM, said:

I have never been one shot in my spider 5K.

In my Commando, yes, in my Spider, no.

But yes, what newbie buys a spider first`?

[Karazyr]

Learn to dodge and pick your battles?

its not that big a problem, just dont attack them in there cone of fire and you will be fine, harassment and surprise are the spiders weapons.

but sometimes you get unlucky and die instantly, **** happens. alternatively get a spider 5D dont bother with the elite tier they are not worth the pain of playing the 5K.

[Escef]

John McFianna, on 17 May 2013 - 12:51 AM, said:

In my Commando, yes, in my Spider, no.

But yes, what newbie buys a spider first`?

Probably one that saw a good Spider pilot go nuts. The highly skilled light jocks pull some incredible stuff off. I've seen Commandos solo lightly damaged assaults, a Jenner tear apart a pair of moderately damaged heavies, etc. So, I can understand a certain amount of, "I wanna do that!" I don't recommend it, that's kinda' jumping into the deep end of the pool before you're ready.

[Hotthedd]

Sephlock, on 16 May 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

Spiders should absolutely be DISINTEGRATED by Alpha strikes.

Actually they SHOULDN'T, unless that Alpha strike was aimed well enough and long enough for some of those weapons to converge on the same spot. Magic insta-convergence is a game-breaking problem.

[Petroshka]

I voted yes, because you said spider. That being said, I keep getting one-shotted in my Ilya 'fract by ppc boats. I can't believe people BMW about LRMs so much that they got nerfed into oblivion when ER-PPCs are such a god-weapon in comparison.

Heat is the PPC boats enemy, but at this point in time, in fairness heat is more of a crabby neighbor to them.

Anyway, solution:

Edited by Petroshka, 17 May 2013 - 07:06 AM.