20 replies to this topic

[MrZakalwe]

Hello again- I started playing just over a month ago but have clocked up quite a few games during that time.

I made a thread after a few days about ECMs and LRMs (not realising they had been intentionally overnerfed) and felt a bit silly afterwards.

Be interested to know if some of the more experienced players in this game agree with me on a few things- I'm actually more interested in people who disagree with me (as whats the point in hearing your own opinions echoed?) so please tell me how I'm wrong (bound to be something)

ECM: currently ECM implementation is really, really bad. The power to equip something at 1.5 tons that makes you meaningfully LRM proof means that even with their damage tripled LRMs would still not be able to do their job. I think this thing needs a complete remake- it's current functions are entirely poisonous gameplay wise.

PPCs: only super powerful right now because of the lack of heat penalties. P.S. is it only me that thinks making them a soft counter to ECM is out of place and arbitrary? Weird situational added power.

LRMs: Basically would be trash even with much higher damage- keep being told that they are no skill weapons but I tried using them and I found them incredibly difficult to hit anybody with.. basically you need to find an enemy that meets the following criteria to actually hurt them;
1) Target not close to an active ECM.
2) Firer not close to an active ECM.
3) Less than around 920M away but more than 190M.
4) isn't very fast.
5) doesn't have AMS
6) isn't near an ally with AMS
7) Not close to cover.
And they need to keep meeting these criteria for up to 9 seconds while you expose yourself to enemy fire. I am not skilled enough as a player yet so I'm going to use skillful builds like my 5PPC stalker (I think you sacrifice too much for that extra PPC) rather than skill less LRM builds that I'm not good enough to use.

Heat Penalties: why don't they exist? Seriously we all blew ourselves up occasionally when overheating in previous mechwarrior games. It was a learning experience.

LBX10s: effective range of 50M makes them kinda useless and with the current doubled armour crit seeking is kinda useless as unarmoured locations are very, very soft.

Jumpjets: are only problematic because they don't impede your aim but they are a problem because of this.

Awesome: badly needs some love and help.

Please tear the above apart
EDIT: Adding the one below
The first 10 double heatsinks should be true doubles even if they are outside of the engine so light mechs are not disadvantaged as they are by the current system- the little buggers need all the help they can get and assaults really dont.

Edited by MrZakalwe, 14 May 2013 - 08:39 AM.

[WolvesX]

GJ mate

[mike29tw]

You pretty much have the general consensus of the entire forum in one post. GJ.

The only thing I disagree is about jump jets. IMO jumping while maintaining accuracy is not the problem. The problem is that heavier mechs with JJs(Cataphract 3D and Highlanders) can a). pack a huge punch and b ). repeatedly jump snipe multiple times in a short time span. Heavies and Assaults are meant to have thick armor and huge firepower so point (a) is really not an issue. As for be, IMO they should increase JJ recharge time by a lot(like 30 sec for full recharge of assault JJs), therefore jump sniping leaves you with less mobility for some time. Seeing how JJs are also effective at maneuvering in close range, there's now a meaningful trade-off to it.

nerf JJ recharge rate on heavies and assaults will greatly reduce effectiveness of jump snipers. Jump sniper is still a viable role, but you can't abuse it without consequences anymore.

Edited by mike29tw, 14 May 2013 - 06:58 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

I think that what so many seem to forget in MWO is that their are 7 other Teammates on the field with you at the same time. Use their Arsenals and Tech suites (that no one f'ing carries as they impede gun loads btw) and allow them to use your arsenal and Tech suite (you do carry counters to some Tech right) to get the best possible results.

Otherwise just do like most. Blame your alive Team mates for your death until they also die and then mock them for being such ******, almost, quasi survivors.

[Braggart]

ECM is broken.

I want a piece of equipment that weighs 1.5 tons and lets me make PPCs worthless nearly all ranges, just a 40ish Meter range where they are good.

I think when people read that line, they get just how fubar ECM is.

[IceSerpent]

Here are the points I disagree with:

MrZakalwe, on 14 May 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

PPCs: only super powerful right now because of the lack of heat penalties.

No, they are currently the go-to weapon because brawling weapons are not as good as they should be. When long range config has roughly the same effectiveness as short range one, everybody quite naturally goes for "freebie" extra range.

Quote

Jumpjets: are only problematic because they don't impede your aim but they are a problem because of this.

JJs are not really problematic themselves, but they are also affected by the lack of brawlers - if you are not concerned about somebody running up to you and shooting you in the face, why not spend some tonnage on JJs?

[Roadbuster]

MrZakalwe, on 14 May 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

Please tear the above apart

Hmm, no need to. All points are valid.

But you forgot to add that AC5 requires a lowered cooldown and not increased range.

[Acid Phase]

OP, you are dead on with the Overheat penalties. Good job.

[Maliconus]

Another excellent post that points out the Currrent problems with the game that PGI will ignore.

[Tennex]

agreed. the problem with ECM is the off/on nature of it in relation to LRMs. it is very binomial.

if someone has ECM your 20 tons of missiles are useless. they are not less useful. thhey are useless. In a competitive game that is just bbad game design.

Edited by Tennex, 14 May 2013 - 08:30 AM.

[MrZakalwe]

IceSerpent, on 14 May 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

No, they are currently the go-to weapon because brawling weapons are not as good as they should be. When long range config has roughly the same effectiveness as short range one, everybody quite naturally goes for "freebie" extra range.



JJs are not really problematic themselves, but they are also affected by the lack of brawlers - if you are not concerned about somebody running up to you and shooting you in the face, why not spend some tonnage on JJs?

good point- so do you think the inclusion of heat penalties along with an increase in the heat efficiency of short range weapons would help? Currently most brawler builds aside from the AC 20 Jager don't run very cold.

[Greyfyl]

If only there was a general discussion forum in which we could voice our displeasure with the current state of the game.

[MrZakalwe]

Agreed- worst move ever.

Oddly that decision did more to put me off the game than the bugs (which I can live with) and the odd approach to balance (which may be more problematic in the long run).

[Vodrin Thales]

mike29tw, on 14 May 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

You pretty much have the general consensus of the entire forum in one post. GJ.

The only thing I disagree is about jump jets. IMO jumping while maintaining accuracy is not the problem. The problem is that heavier mechs with JJs(Cataphract 3D and Highlanders) can a). pack a huge punch and b ). repeatedly jump snipe multiple times in a short time span. Heavies and Assaults are meant to have thick armor and huge firepower so point (a) is really not an issue. As for be, IMO they should increase JJ recharge time by a lot(like 30 sec for full recharge of assault JJs), therefore jump sniping leaves you with less mobility for some time. Seeing how JJs are also effective at maneuvering in close range, there's now a meaningful trade-off to it.

nerf JJ recharge rate on heavies and assaults will greatly reduce effectiveness of jump snipers. Jump sniper is still a viable role, but you can't abuse it without consequences anymore.

For jump jets I think the easiest solution it to make zoom non-functional while jumping. Would not affect non-sniping jump mechs, but would make it very difficult to hit a precise section of an enemy mech while jumping. It would also make jump sniping more skill intensive.

I also agree about the heat issues. They have it about right for going above 100% heat with override (the damage is pretty significant and I have seen several players blow up their mech that way), but I do think shutting down needs to be a bit more penalizing. Perhaps not allow the offending mech to start back up until heat has dropped below 50-70%. I also think that PPC's/ERPPC's need a bit more heat generation.

On ECM you are right on. Just make LRM's anemic without artemis, TAG, or NARC (kind of like they are now), but hit hard with those active. Then make ECM not interfere with missile locks and have it counter artemis, TAG, NARC, and BAP. Done. ECM is still useful for greatly reducing LRM damage and for hiding mechs at a distance, but is not the null signature device it is now (requiring multiple hard counters to balance).

[IceSerpent]

MrZakalwe, on 14 May 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

good point- so do you think the inclusion of heat penalties along with an increase in the heat efficiency of short range weapons would help? Currently most brawler builds aside from the AC 20 Jager don't run very cold.

I think PPC/ERPPC is fine as it is. Problem is that SRMs/SSRMs got nerfed damage-wise, short range lasers run too hot (ML is marginally OK, SL/MPL/LPL are just plain awful as far as heat is concerned, SPL...well, it's been sitting in unwanted toys box from the start of closed beta for a very good reason), and AC20 was reincarnated as medium range weapon in MWO.
When you have a situation where all brawler configs revolve around SRM/SSRM and you nerf all missiles into the ground, you quite naturaly end up with a snipe-fest in a matter of days.

[Felbombling]

There are multiple things wrong within the core mechanics of the game that are making it impossible to balance. I don't care how often they lower or raise the heat on the PPC by a single point, because the game will never be in balance. Until they address the rate of fire, heat system and ammunition levels, they have no actual hope of game balance. Pinpoint targeting of locations, freedom in the Mech Lab and then the other things you mention in the OP all add up to a game that will both breed and promote high alpha game play.

[Ryokens leap]

I don't even notice ECM anymore. When I get a low signal I turn around and alpha a Spider, Raven, Commando, or Cicada in the face and any Atlas that doesn't show up on radar is an instant bullet magnet.

[Das Wudone]

PPCs are very effective at countering ecm if ur a good shot. when ur bringing LRMs u should always have TAG with u. bringing PPCs together with LRMs and TAG will overwhelm any ECM carrying mech . another good combo together with PPCs are streaks against fast ECM mechs.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

As an AWS Pilot, I just think that other assaults shouldnt be as fast, in general. Yeah we have the 9M, 1 variant, that goes fast at the cost of either gimped firepower (STD) or totally fragile capabilities (XL). The STK can run most of the same loadouts and go just 1.6 kph slower. IMO, The AWS should be the only assault capable of going over 60kph consistently.

Other than that, I love my 8R, and I think they're fine.

[Traigus]

There are actual overheat penalties. They are just reeeaaaaly hard to get to happen.

Just before you overheat. hit "o" so betty says override engaged and keep shooting. Watch your internals got bye bye and your ammo explode.

Trouble is, it is far easier to shut down and use 'O" to restart. hell it is the default action.

That's right, you have to actually TRY to blow up, by hitting a button at the exact right time....


Heat has to mean some thing before you hit the cap. A magical "yes I want to die" button isn't balance. When not hitting it is always better.