29 replies to this topic

[Sephlock]

I know this will lead to catastrophic ammo explosions, but its either that or lowering the weight of ac/2s (which will cause so many horrified shrieks from people who hate fun that it just won't be worth it).

[Neolisk]

Reducing weight of AC2s even by 1 ton would make 6 AC2 Jagermech too good, and potentially viable. I am okay with increasing ammo to a 100, cause you get most shots missed anyway. With that said, current AC ammo specs are pretty much balanced damage wise, i.e. you get fixed amount of maximum AC damage per ton. If you change AC2s ammo count, someone can ask to increase that of AC20, and other ACs.

[ExtremeA79]

I agree with Neolisk.
There should always be a disadvantage to a weapon.

[Tennex]

give all ballistics more ammo/ton

[Sephlock]

Neolisk, on 13 May 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

Reducing weight of AC2s even by 1 ton would make 6 AC2 Jagermech too good, and potentially viable. I am okay with increasing ammo to a 100, cause you get most shots missed anyway.

Are you sure about that? 6 more tons would allow for more ammo but as for heat sinks.... you wouldn't have quite enough unless you played whack-a-mole (as the mole).

Quote

If you change AC2s ammo count, someone can ask to increase that of AC20, and other ACs.

CURSES! You've uncovered my evil plot!

[Dirus Nigh]

I think that the AC2 is well balanced as is. Both the weapon and shots per ton.

[Skyfaller]

Umm.. you just give up one AC2 in the Jager for 6 tons of ammo. My Jager loads 1000 rnds of AC2 with 5 AC2's firing.

of course I have reduced armor but when firing from 1500m you dont have to worry about too much return fire. I average over 400 dmg in most maps with it. In Alpine for example I end up putting at least 2 mechs into red torso armor before they even get into range of my team's weapons.

[Alistair Winter]

Neolisk, on 13 May 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

Reducing weight of AC2s even by 1 ton would make 6 AC2 Jagermech too good, and potentially viable.

Is that bad?

Neolisk, on 13 May 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

If you change AC2s ammo count, someone can ask to increase that of AC20, and other ACs.

lolwut? So if you change the heat of a PPC, people will ask that you change the heat of small pulse lasers. Ergo, don't change anything ever.

Darren Tyler, on 13 May 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

I agree with Neolisk.
There should always be a disadvantage to a weapon.

And right now, you can't think of any disadvantages to the AC2 except the ammo?

Tennex, on 13 May 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

give all ballistics more ammo/ton

Yeah, I'm crying bitter tears of sorrow on behalf of those poor AC20 Jagermechs and Catapults out there.

Dirus Nigh, on 13 May 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

I think that the AC2 is well balanced as is. Both the weapon and shots per ton.

Then why are no using it? After 6 months, no one has noticed that it's actually as good as other ballistics?

I see maybe 5-10% of mechs with ballistics using AC2s. Of those, more than half are Cataphracts or Jagers with 4-6 of them. I rarely see medium mechs with AC2s, and I can't even remember the last time I saw a light mech with an AC2.

If it was balanced, like SRMs, LRMs, lasers, gauss and UAC5s, you would see more people equip 1 or 2 of them, because their being balanced always makes them a viable option. When a weapon is only being boated or not used at all, that's a good sign that there's something wrong with its balance.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 13 May 2013 - 09:33 PM.

[Sephlock]

But THERE ARE SIX SLOTS!

SIX SLOTS *DEMAND* SIX AUTOCANNONS!

[Alistair Winter]

Sephlock, on 13 May 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

But THERE ARE SIX SLOTS!

SIX SLOTS *DEMAND* SIX AUTOCANNONS!

Did you just troll your own thread?

[Sephlock]

Alistair Winter, on 13 May 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

Did you just troll your own thread?

I assure you I spoke from my heart.

[Dirus Nigh]

Alistair Winter, on 13 May 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

Then why are no using it? After 6 months, no one has noticed that it's actually as good as other ballistics?

I see maybe 5-10% of mechs with ballistics using AC2s. Of those, more than half are Cataphracts or Jagers with 4-6 of them. I rarely see medium mechs with AC2s, and I can't even remember the last time I saw a light mech with an AC2.

If it was balanced, like SRMs, LRMs, lasers, gauss and UAC5s, you would see more people equip 1 or 2 of them, because their being balanced always makes them a viable option. When a weapon is only being boated or not used at all, that's a good sign that there's something wrong with its balance.

The AC2 is quite prominent in the game. I use a pair on my K2, Have used one on my centurion and dragon, as well as four on my jager. I have also used one on my raven. I have done very well with them. The AC2 has one of the longest ranges in the game, it has a high fire rate with 75 rounds per ton. Not only that it causes cockpit shake.

Your pretense that the AC2 is underpowered because people dont use one is ridiculous. By that logic the large laser sucks because people always use at least two. As with PPCs, medium lasers, streaks, LRMs, SRMs, small lasers.... OH look most people use 2-4 of these weapons on their mechs. Unless its an AC20, gauss rifle, or AC10, because they are huge.

People use more than one because they can. Not because the weapon is ineffective singly. Why use just one when you can have two, or four?

Missiles are not balanced at all. their damage was reduced to the point that a mech needs to carry at least two of them in order to get any worth while results.

Six tons is perfect for an AC2. Reducing the weight will upset the balance with the weapon. It will also allow some mechs to boat them with less risk. My quad AC2 jager for example will have four tons to apply to armor, heat sinks, ammo, better energy weapons or a bigger engine. The thing is my mech does not need it to fulfill the role of a direct fire support mech.

Also keep in mind that I can fire one or two ac2s with out over heating with 12 double heat sinks. That is continuous fire until the ammo runs out. That is a lot of damage being dealt out.

[Keifomofutu]

It spreads its damage more than other acs negating the bonus to aiming and suffering from 2x armor more.

It could use a little more ammo to make up for the damage spreading.

[Alistair Winter]

Dirus Nigh, on 13 May 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:

The AC2 is quite prominent in the game. I use a pair on my K2, Have used one on my centurion and dragon, as well as four on my jager. I have also used one on my raven. I have done very well with them. The AC2 has one of the longest ranges in the game, it has a high fire rate with 75 rounds per ton. Not only that it causes cockpit shake.

The standard anecdotal evidence. "X is good because I can do a lot of damage with it and use it all the time". Well, few other people can and do.

Dirus Nigh, on 13 May 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:

Your pretense that the AC2 is underpowered because people dont use one is ridiculous. By that logic the large laser sucks because people always use at least two. As with PPCs, medium lasers, streaks, LRMs, SRMs, small lasers.... OH look most people use 2-4 of these weapons on their mechs. Unless its an AC20, gauss rifle, or AC10, because they are huge.

Well, if you look away from the people who are boating, and take a look at the people who actually bother using balanced builds, you'll see that a lot of them will use, say, a single LRM 15, or a single large laser, or a single PPC. It depends on the weight class of course. You won't often see a Highlander only using 1 ballistic weapon, 1 missle weapon and 1 energy weapon, because they have the capacity to carry two or three of each. Still, it's fairly common to see an Atlas or Highlander with, say, 1 x LRM 15, 2 x SRM4, 1 ballistic weapon and 2 energy weapons. If you look at light mechs, you'll quite often find people using a single SRM or SSRM and a combination of different laser sizes without boating them. The exception being the Jenners, which tend to boat medium and / or small lasers.

Dirus Nigh, on 13 May 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:

Missiles are not balanced at all. their damage was reduced to the point that a mech needs to carry at least two of them in order to get any worth while results.

I still see a lot of assault mechs with a single LRM 15 or LRM 20. And I still see a lot of light mechs with a single SRM launcher. Their damage is not bad, which is part of the reason people are starting to use them again, even before PGI has implemented the promised buff.

Dirus Nigh, on 13 May 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:

Six tons is perfect for an AC2. Reducing the weight will upset the balance with the weapon. It will also allow some mechs to boat them with less risk. My quad AC2 jager for example will have four tons to apply to armor, heat sinks, ammo, better energy weapons or a bigger engine. The thing is my mech does not need it to fulfill the role of a direct fire support mech.
Also keep in mind that I can fire one or two ac2s with out over heating with 12 double heat sinks. That is continuous fire until the ammo runs out. That is a lot of damage being dealt out.

As long as we're exchanging personal experiences, I've never seen any quad AC2 mech cause a lot of damage in this game. I have seen mechs with 5 or 6 AC2s cause a lot of damage, but those things are usually hit or miss due to their fragility. I don't doubt that you can do well with it, but from my experience, very few others can.

And it is a lot of damage if you can consistently hit a moving target, which is where most people fail. As a light mech pilot, I'll happily engage an AC2 boat, as they normally can't hit me at short range, and even when they do momentarily hit me, the damage is tolerable. It's not the russian roulette of going up against a mech with AC10s or AC20s.

[Neolisk]

I am gonna buy a Jager with 4 ballistic slots soon to see how bad 4 AC2s really are. I mean cmon, 16 max DPS seems a lot! Unfortunately, I don't currently own any mechs with ballistic hardpoints. But rest assured, this is pure coincidence!

Edited by Neolisk, 14 May 2013 - 03:22 AM.

[Scromboid]

Oooh, kind of like the stock JM6-S with 75 AC/2 shots?

Yeah, I'd be okay with upping all ammo.

Also, quick stats here for ya below, to carry the conversation.

AC/2 - 75 shots = 150 Damage per ton, 6 ton weapon, 1 Heat
AC/5 - 30 shots = 150 Damage per ton, 8 ton weapon, 1 Heat
UAC/5 - 25 shots = 125 Damage per ton, 9 ton weapon, 1 Heat
AC/10 - 15 shots = 150 Damage per ton, 12 ton weapon, 3 Heat
AC/20 - 7 shots = 140 Damage per ton, 14 ton weapon, 6 Heat
LB 10-X - 15 shots = 150 Damage per ton, 11 ton weapon, 2 Heat
Gauss - 10 shots = 150 Damage per ton, 15 ton weapon, 1 Heat
PPC - ∞ shots = ∞ Damage per round, 7 ton weapon, 8-11 Heat

[Gaan Cathal]

To be honest, damage per ton ammo could stand to be increased for all the ballistics. We've increased armour after all, and it'll give those builds that rely on firing an AC several times to kill a little bit more of a chance against the two-shots-to-core fotm.

[Liberator]

Darren Tyler, on 13 May 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

I agree with Neolisk.
There should always be a disadvantage to a weapon.

Yea, and ballistic weapons are MOSTLY disadvantages, they are very heavy, the ammo is heavy, AND explodes.

Most of the time when i look at ac's i try to put them on my mech, but the weight and real battle performance is just not worth it.
Lasers all the way.

[Keifomofutu]

Liberator, on 14 May 2013 - 05:53 AM, said:

Yea, and ballistic weapons are MOSTLY disadvantages, they are very heavy, the ammo is heavy, AND explodes.

Most of the time when i look at ac's i try to put them on my mech, but the weight and real battle performance is just not worth it.
Lasers all the way.

And right now PPCs functionally perform similarly to ballistics only they fire faster and cost you much less tonnage. Hence you can put a hard hitting pinpoint strike in even a smaller mech with no chance of ever running out of ammo. Plus with DHS the smaller mechs have a bit of heat to spare.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 14 May 2013 - 07:12 AM.

[Adrienne Vorton]

maybe it´s because i´m not an 6XAC2 user, but i am totally fine with the ac2 as it is... yes, i use it...before you ask