71 replies to this topic

[Terror Teddy]

With the ECM having been THE equipment to have due to being extremely powerful with abilities like:

-Making an entire team invisible to sensors within 180 meters
-Immunity to missiles unless TAGGED (outside of 180 meters)
-Anti-ECM mode
etc...

Then came the PPC with it's EMP effect to take it out.

Now we have BAP that nullifies it within 150 meters.

I'm all for a system with effects and counters but once again I feel that PGI ignores the core problem and swings a heavy handed nerf bat that has very far reaching effects.

We now have 3 things that cancel out ECM from May 21.
-ECM in "Counter Mode"
-PPC effect
-BAP

ECM will now be quite marginalized due to their rather limited effect due to how often people equip BAP or PPC's or using ECM to cancel out ECM.

And why even KEEP disrupt mode on the ECM when the BAP does it as an area effect with 30 meters less range. Unless you are TRULY strapped for tonnage and cannot find the 1,5 tonnes for the BAP.

EDIT
In a way, as another bandaid the ECM mechs became marginally better now since they can BOTH disrupt enemy ECM AND use their own ECM as long as the enemy is NOT BAP equipped.

In Conclusion
I truly wish that PGI went back to the drawing board and simply used the basic design from the boardgame in regards to Electronic Warfare and THEN added cool quirks instead of using rather hamfisted ways of putting things into the game.

Too much Rock,Paper, Scissor and far too little actual electronic warfare tactics.

To PGI
PGI, I love you guys, spent 250 USD so far on the game and you are doing good work considering the size of your team - but you really need to look a bit deeper into long term effects on the gear and changes you make and revisit the drawing board once and again.

The silver lining
Scouts can still benefit on larger maps by sneaking on the edge and flanking to get behind lone snipers since their ECM would still JAM them as long as they are within 180 meters but outside the 150 meter BAP bubble.

Edited by Terror Teddy, 15 May 2013 - 08:56 AM.

[Syllogy]

You're pretty much on the money.

ECM will generally be relegated to a long-range scout role.

However, there will still be those uncommon situations where ECM will work as a brawling system since a lot of pilots will still refuse to carry BAP.

[Terror Teddy]

Syllogy, on 15 May 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

However, there will still be those uncommon situations where ECM will work as a brawling system since a lot of pilots will still refuse to carry BAP.

Anyone carrying missiles and choosing NOT to carry a 1,5 BAP cannot be considered quite right in the head if they dont - ESPECIALLY after May 21.

[Hawker]

I always carry BAP in missle boats due to the range and targeting info, combined with Artemis for lock on speed, it works pretty well.

[MaddMaxx]

And after all the ECM hoopla, many will be displeased, and post about it, that PGI has, apparently "forced them" to carry said 1.5t of BAP. Even though it isn't really required currently, save for those well documented instances above.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Already have BAP on my Highlander LRM version. And working out where to fit BAP on my Centurion with LRM's. Might be dropping some ammo which stinks.

[Miekael]

Don't forget NARC, according to a dev response here http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2327569 narc will counter ECM as well. Don't know if it made it in game yet. I imagine in a month they will change Artemis to counter ECM as well.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Miekael, on 15 May 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

Don't forget NARC, according to a dev response here http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2327569 narc will counter ECM as well. Don't know if it made it in game yet. I imagine in a month they will change Artemis to counter ECM as well.

They need to change NARC a lot more to make it work. The missile slot requirement is tough enough. It's ammo per ton and weight for the whole system sucks.

Then throw in the velocity of the NARC beacon when shot.

And the fact that one good shot will turn it off.

NARC needs a lot.

[Lupus Aurelius]

I have argue against PGI's implementation of ECM since the beginning...

I still think it suxs....

BUT ALL HAIL BAP AND STREAKS AND THE END OF 3L/COMMAND/SPIDER/CICADA CICLEJERKING WITH IMPUNITY!!!

:::CACKLES MANICALLY while building a BAP/5xSSRM2 Stalker:::

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 15 May 2013 - 10:48 AM.

[Braggart]

Terror Teddy, on 15 May 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

Anyone carrying missiles and choosing NOT to carry a 1,5 BAP cannot be considered quite right in the head if they dont - ESPECIALLY after May 21.

If i am an LRM boat, Bap doesnt do to much for me. Bap will disrupt ECM on mechs that are below my minimum range. If i am using streaks, then Bap is great, or if my teammates that are brawling have bap.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Braggart, on 15 May 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

If i am an LRM boat, Bap doesnt do to much for me. Bap will disrupt ECM on mechs that are below my minimum range. If i am using streaks, then Bap is great, or if my teammates that are brawling have bap.

The thing BAP does for an LRM boat, is if a Raven with ECM wanders by, and it decides to stay near you (without even attacking), it can't lock you down.

That's a big deal. Sometimes I'd end up near some kind of light vs. light battle, and without them even worrying about me, shut down my LRM's.

And even in a 98kph Centurion, you can't exactly outrun them. So for something like a Stalker with LRM's, they are effectively shutting down those weapons, with no real skill required.

[Taemien]

The thing about this change that I kind of don't like is the players that believe ECM is the devil will all be mounting BAP to counter it. This is going to have little to no gameplay change, but in their eyes they think they will. Yes they will be able to counter some of the bad Raven pilots. But there are some better ones out there that won't be countered.

The BAP is going to give them a false sense of security. It will be a wasted bit of space that will make those opponents that much less effective. Of course the effects of ECM that they hate the most will not be present, but then they'll realize they are sill losing and will go on a witch hunt against something else.

Now I'm not saying BAP changes shouldn't go in, I'm actually indifferent to them. This is just a prediction of player behavior that I dislike and there's really nothing that can be done about that. But only because of the whining and ignorance that will spark from it.

Seeing that LRMs are coming up for a pass, I believe their next complaint will be against LRMs. They are going to go toe to toe with a Raven and wonder why they are getting demolished and on the kill screen it will say LRMs and they will focus on that. Never mind the fact that they shouldn't have tango'd with a Raven spotter in a remote section of the map.

[senaiboy]

One just can't please everyone. However, unless you are in favor of ECM being the best 1.5 ton equipment there is, I don't see why this change is not good.

First of all ECM should never had been that powerful in the first place, now that its effectiveness has been dampened down by another 1.5 ton equipment that is available to everymech, ECM has cease to be the must-have for ECM mechs.

Secondly, BAP is very rarely used unless one has LRMs. Now there is a reason to bring BAP for brawling mechs.

Rock, paper, scissors is where the electronic warfare seems to be heading. Would you spend 1.5 ton to bring BAP in case the enemy has ECM? Would you bother to bring ECM if the enemy has BAP anyway? Would you bring a counter against his counter?

TL;DR - ECM is no longer a must-have equipment. BAP will now be used more. Is that a bad thing?

Edited by senaiboy, 15 May 2013 - 11:07 AM.

[senaiboy]

Taemien, on 15 May 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

The thing about this change that I kind of don't like is the players that believe ECM is the devil will all be mounting BAP to counter it. This is going to have little to no gameplay change, but in their eyes they think they will. Yes they will be able to counter some of the bad Raven pilots. But there are some better ones out there that won't be countered.

You should know that feeling being in a light mech and do the circle of death with a Raven-3L. You're severely disadvantaged by not being able to use your SSRMs.

ECM has been granting these Raven-3Ls immunity to SSRMs, which is the strongest weapon against lights. However with "Skill", you could arguably try to stay outside BAP's counter range and still maintain your ECM advantage over the other light mechs.

This means that the onus will lie on the ECM-carrying light mech to outplay others, and not just carry a 1.5 ton equipment that gives them an obvious advantage over other light mechs.

Edited by senaiboy, 15 May 2013 - 11:24 AM.

[Buzzkillin]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 May 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

The thing BAP does for an LRM boat, is if a Raven with ECM wanders by, and it decides to stay near you (without even attacking), it can't lock you down.

That's a big deal. Sometimes I'd end up near some kind of light vs. light battle, and without them even worrying about me, shut down my LRM's.

And even in a 98kph Centurion, you can't exactly outrun them. So for something like a Stalker with LRM's, they are effectively shutting down those weapons, with no real skill required.

If you have enemy mech that close, especially if you are a long range support, you have other things to worry about then trying to lock onto a target that 500+meters away.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Buzzkillin, on 15 May 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

If you have enemy mech that close, especially if you are a long range support, you have other things to worry about then trying to lock onto a target that 500+meters away.

Good light mechs are on you in moments on the small maps.

You cannot avoid them unless they ignore you.

Right now they can lock you down and shoot other targets.

With BAP I can continue dropping LRM's on other mechs while I try to dodge or draw them near a friendly mech to help me.

[NinetyProof]

Terror Teddy, on 15 May 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

I truly wish that PGI went back to the drawing board

They kind of did ... and they stated it ... something like:

ECM is now primary for long range covert movement.

Scouts, get to scout, and be undetected. Perfect.

Groups, trying to move covertly for positioning / tactical advantage. Perfect.

The rest of it? glad it's gone ... but at the cost of 1.5 tons? Your not going to have a lot of brawler volunteers wanting to give up that tonnage.

As long as ECM costs something and BAP costs something, it will become a tactical decision, instead of the no brainer it is now. ECM was too powerful for too little cost.

Going to wait to play with the new mechanics before saying they went to far ... or not far enough. Especially considering the changes to LRM's in general. A lot of meta is changing, so how much this really affects, or doesn't, won't be really known for 30 days after the change.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

NinetyProof, on 15 May 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

They kind of did ... and they stated it ... something like:

I did read your whole post.

But they really didn't.

Here is the crux of the problem.

On the 21st, EVERYONE is going to mount BAP. (ok a bit of hyperbole, but I'd wager an overwhelming majority of players will)

Everyone who runs an ECM mech, is going to say "Ah, F this, I can play a non-ECM variant and use a better loadout" (aside from maybe the Spiders.

Then, everyone who has BAP will be like "Oh hey, no one is running ECM anymore, time to add another ton of ammo and a half ton of armor".

At which point, people realize they can't start bringing ECM again.

Etc. etc.

The end result is, ECM by itself without BAP is still a poorly designed piece of equipment.

ECM needs to be balanced by itself.

Right now, PGI is saying ECM is balanced when you have PPC's, BAP, TAG, NARC and the Adv. Sensor Module.

It's all bad mechanics.

[Ngamok]

Lupus Aurelius, on 15 May 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

I have argue against PGI's implementation of ECM since the beginning...

I still think it suxs....

BUT ALL HAIL BAP AND STREAKS AND THE END OF 3L/COMMAND/SPIDER/CICADA CICLEJERKING WITH IMPUNITY!!!

:::CACKLES MANICALLY while building a BAP/5xSSRM2 Stalker:::

Ditto. Will be doing the same. If ECM is a LRM cover umbrella and / or scout, so be it. It shouldn't be a fast light cirle jerk, nyah nyah nyah you can't hit me because you are a LRM boat who can't do anything even with your streaks as I am shooting you and locking you down.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 May 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

The thing BAP does for an LRM boat, is if a Raven with ECM wanders by, and it decides to stay near you (without even attacking), it can't lock you down.

That's a big deal. Sometimes I'd end up near some kind of light vs. light battle, and without them even worrying about me, shut down my LRM's.

And even in a 98kph Centurion, you can't exactly outrun them. So for something like a Stalker with LRM's, they are effectively shutting down those weapons, with no real skill required.

It just depends on the range of BAP, they said that 150 was a work in progress and ECM is 180.

[senaiboy]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 May 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

I did read your whole post.

But they really didn't.

Here is the crux of the problem.

On the 21st, EVERYONE is going to mount BAP. (ok a bit of hyperbole, but I'd wager an overwhelming majority of players will)

Everyone who runs an ECM mech, is going to say "Ah, F this, I can play a non-ECM variant and use a better loadout" (aside from maybe the Spiders.

Then, everyone who has BAP will be like "Oh hey, no one is running ECM anymore, time to add another ton of ammo and a half ton of armor".

At which point, people realize they can't start bringing ECM again.

Etc. etc.

The end result is, ECM by itself without BAP is still a poorly designed piece of equipment.

ECM needs to be balanced by itself.

Right now, PGI is saying ECM is balanced when you have PPC's, BAP, TAG, NARC and the Adv. Sensor Module.

It's all bad mechanics.

You're making the assumption that most people will load BAP. In reality, the only ones who will actually need BAP are:

• Light mechs, which will actually HELP their scouting ability by extending their sensors.
  
• LRM boats, to stop the disabling effect when an ECM mech stands next to it. Most already bring BAP anyway to reduce lock-on time and
  
• SSRM brawlers, to stop the disabling effect as well.

For the others, why should they bother with BAP? ECM does not affect direct damage weapons. ECM will not cut you off from your team. BAP will not enable you to detect faraway mechs under ECM cover. Why waste 1.5 tons?

You seem to miss the fact that ECM has been balanced - it no longer affects friendly IFF (which is a major annoyance), and it no longer grant immunity to SSRMs (which made the Raven-3L a major annoyance).

ECM will become a tactical choice, not a mandatory equipment for ECM-mechs. I fail to see how this is bad.

Edited by senaiboy, 15 May 2013 - 01:16 PM.