36 replies to this topic

[Necroconvict]

So the Cicada, can basically take all the stuff the blackjacks can take... a difference is though, the Cicada, can take MUCH larger engines, I mean impressively so, and can bury double heat sinks in the engines to compensate. I can run an ER PPC, and 2 medium lasers on my Cicada, with an XL 235 engine, with a speed of 131.6, and a heat efficiency of 1.63 Not so much with my Blackjack

[Phoenix Gray]

Necroconvict, on 22 May 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

So the Cicada, can basically take all the stuff the blackjacks can take... a difference is though, the Cicada, can take MUCH larger engines, I mean impressively so, and can bury double heat sinks in the engines to compensate. I can run an ER PPC, and 2 medium lasers on my Cicada, with an XL 235 engine, with a speed of 131.6, and a heat efficiency of 1.63 Not so much with my Blackjack

Ah, but when I stuff 6 mg in my BJ I can dominate the battlefield with itty-bitty dakka!

[Khobai]

No BJ can have 6 mg. And yes the Cicada and Jenner both do everything the Blackjack can do and do a better job of it.

[Necroconvict]

Khobai, on 22 May 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

No BJ can have 6 mg. And yes the Cicada and Jenner both do everything the Blackjack can do and do a better job of it.

They really do, the BJ only has what 5 tons, and 30 armor more than a Cicada? Heck I can strap 2 ERPPCs on a Cicada, and still pull better speed, and heat. I might even be able to do it to a Jenner (I have never used a Jenner, but I probably can).

[Yiazmat]

can the cicada or Jenner do this http://mwo.smurfy-ne...83516094554d2bf ?
No,  I didn't think so. Don't hate,  try the Pappa Urbanmech a while. it's fun and challenging. *hint* stick with your assaults.  JJ's make a wonderful platform to peak over the head of 100 ton friendly and choke someone with and AC/20. besides,  your comparison is biased. don't compare a support mech to a scout mech.  Hunchback vs Blackjack.  THAT is a better comparison.  JJ's vs  Torso twist.  Hunch vs (almost) Mandatory XL Engine. Discuss these.

Edited by Yiazmat, 22 May 2013 - 05:42 PM.

[Necroconvict]

Yiazmat, on 22 May 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

can the cicada or Jenner do this http://mwo.smurfy-ne...83516094554d2bf ?
No, I didn't think so. Don't hate, try the Pappa Urbanmech a while. it's fun and challenging. *hint* stick with your assaults. JJ's make a wonderful platform to peak over the head of 100 ton friendly and choke someone with and AC/20

BJ-3 can't do that

[Lootee]

The BJ is one of those WTF mechs that sucks but never quite disappears from the Inner Sphere. The design lingers around like a bad odor. There's a 3050 version and an omnimech version too.

In my opinion we have more than enough 64kph medium mechs, need moar 81-113kph mediums. If we had to get another 64kph mech, the Hatchetman instead of BJ would have been better since it's a derpy unique kind of mech. The BJ seems mediocre just like the TT version.

If they jump the timeline forward we might start seeing more proper medium mechs like the Lynx, Stealth, Komodo, Grimreaper, Starslayer, Buccaneer, Wraith, etc... The good 3049-3050 era medium mechs (PXH, WVR, GRF) are unseen.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 22 May 2013 - 06:00 PM.

[Fate 6]

PanchoTortilla, on 22 May 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

The BJ is one of those WTF mechs that sucks but never quite disappears. There's a 3050 version and an omnimech version too.

In my opinion we have more than enough 64kph medium mechs, need moar 81-113kph mediums. If we had gotten the Hatchetman instead of BJ it'd be better since it's a derpy unique kind of mech. The BJ seems mediocre just like the TT version.

Unfortunately AC2s suck, and MGs suck, so you are stuck with a mech that can't really use ballistics well yet doesn't have many other hardpoints. I'm honestly surprised that PGI didn't give the BJ the Jagermech treatment. I mean, come on, the Jager got so many extra hardpoints and the BJ got 0. PGI doesn't really like mediums very much. Other than the Cents, the mediums have gotten almost no extra hardpoints while the Heavies have gotten a buttload.

So yes, we're stuck with a mech larger than the Cicada, with essentially the same hardpoints, and without the ability to use large engines. Even if it could run a larger XL it wouldn't help nearly as much because the mech cross section is larger than a Cicada with its tiny side torsos. Maybe one day we'll get the BJ with 4 SSRM2s. THEN we'll have a mech worth piloting.

Edited by Fate 6, 22 May 2013 - 05:50 PM.

[Deathlike]

Here's 3 points of why this comparison is flawed:

1) Cicadas can't jump... at least until the Cicada-jumper version is released (it's a timeline issue).
2) Cicadas serve a completely different role than the BJ. Cicadas are effectively a light mech and the Blackjack is a support mech.
3) BJs last longer... OK, I just wanted to say that.

I wouldn't be classifying mechs the same way.. mech roles are defined through their loadouts. A BJ loadout is vastly different than the Cicada, and comparing them directly is silly. If they were similar, then sure. A semi-comparable thing is the BJ-1X vs the Hunchback-4P and the BJ-3 would be compared to a Trebuchet-7M.

Edited by Deathlike, 22 May 2013 - 05:52 PM.

[Fate 6]

Deathlike, on 22 May 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Here's 3 points of why this comparison is flawed:

1) Cicadas can't jump... at least until the Cicada-jumper version is released (it's a timeline issue).
2) Cicadas serve a completely different role than the BJ. Cicadas are effectively a light mech and the Blackjack is a support mech.
3) BJs last longer... OK, I just wanted to say that.

I wouldn't be classifying mechs the same way.. mech roles are defined through their loadouts. A BJ loadout is vastly different than the Cicada, and comparing them directly is silly. If they were similar, then sure. A semi-comparable thing is the BJ-1X vs the Hunchback-4P and the BJ-3 would be compared to a Trebuchet-7M.

Actually, you can load a Cicada to have similar weaponry to a Blackjack (2 PPCs for example) and do it with a bigger engine and better heat efficiency. By taking a BJ you are essentially sacrificing speed for jump jets. Cicadas last just as long or longer, since the armor difference isn't significant and they are smaller mechs with smaller side torsos.

Edited by Fate 6, 22 May 2013 - 06:01 PM.

[Deathlike]

Fate 6, on 22 May 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

Actually, you can load a Cicada to have similar weaponry to a Blackjack (2 PPCs for example) and do it with a bigger engine and better heat efficiency. By taking a BJ you are essentially sacrificing speed for jump jets. Cicadas last just as long or longer, since the armor difference isn't significant and they are smaller mechs with smaller side torsos.

I would not bother to use just 2 PPCs... it wouldn't be my cup of tea on what is effectively a "light mech".

Before you even ask, yes, I've used a Cicada before.

[Yiazmat]

Fate, biased comparisons are still biased. Stop comparing scouts with support.

[operator0]

Yiazmat, on 22 May 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

can the cicada or Jenner do this http://mwo.smurfy-ne...83516094554d2bf ?
No, I didn't think so. Don't hate, try the Pappa Urbanmech a while. it's fun and challenging. *hint* stick with your assaults. JJ's make a wonderful platform to peak over the head of 100 ton friendly and choke someone with and AC/20. besides, your comparison is biased. don't compare a support mech to a scout mech. Hunchback vs Blackjack. THAT is a better comparison. JJ's vs Torso twist. Hunch vs (almost) Mandatory XL Engine. Discuss these.

No, it can't. But the BJ can't do this: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...226d4e717e70078 Gauss with ECM at 111 kph. Pretty decent flanker in PUG matches. Will get demolished in 8 mans, but so will that your BJ.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

The Blackjack is a much better ridge humper than a Cicada, or a Jenner for the matter. Only reason we're not seeing it is the current LRM flight paths make it very dangerous

[Zyllos]

I am actually kinda surprised the amount I can get out of the BJ-1 with a STD engine.

[Carrioncrows]

Necroconvict, on 22 May 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

So the Cicada, can basically take all the stuff the blackjacks can take... a difference is though, the Cicada, can take MUCH larger engines, I mean impressively so, and can bury double heat sinks in the engines to compensate. I can run an ER PPC, and 2 medium lasers on my Cicada, with an XL 235 engine, with a speed of 131.6, and a heat efficiency of 1.63 Not so much with my Blackjack

The cicada is built for speed, the Blackjack is built for weapons.

Running a big engine in the blackjack is a mistake, it's a weapons platform unlike the cicada which is a scout / harasser and the difference is clear and it shows

Standard Load out on my Blackjack.
200 XL (72 kph, or 79 kph with speed tweak) - 7.5 tons or 9.5 tons with 2 external heatsinks.
Endo
10 DHS
288 Armor ( 9 tons of armor)

x2 AC5's (x4 tons of ammo)
x4 Medium lasers

That's 24 tons worth of weapons on a solid platform, hell this thing out gun's most of my 50 ton mechs, hell it's like running a 45 ton jagermech. Sure you lack the armor but your slightly faster.

The Blackjack isn't a scimitar built to slice, riposte and dance around danger to swirl over to the next opponent.
The Blackjack is a hammer, you hit someone with it, repeatedly and then swagger over to the next opponent.

You CAN make the Blackjack go fast, i've got a 295 XL engine in my BJ-1X but considering the size of the engine I am find that it's simply not required, you get more benefit from rolling weapons over speed and to do speed is costing you a lot more tonnage.

[Rhent]

Necroconvict, on 22 May 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

So the Cicada, can basically take all the stuff the blackjacks can take... a difference is though, the Cicada, can take MUCH larger engines, I mean impressively so, and can bury double heat sinks in the engines to compensate. I can run an ER PPC, and 2 medium lasers on my Cicada, with an XL 235 engine, with a speed of 131.6, and a heat efficiency of 1.63 Not so much with my Blackjack

Can your Cicada run 8 ML + go 116KPh + have 18 DHS? Oh you can't, sucks to be a Cicada.

[Deathlike]

Rhent, on 22 May 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

Can your Cicada run 8 ML + go 116KPh + have 18 DHS? Oh you can't, sucks to be a Cicada.

Considered building it... did not need it. Yet, it is still better than the Cicada if you wanted it.

[Khobai]

Quote

can the cicada or Jenner do this http://mwo.smurfy-ne...83516094554d2bf ?

Thats not even a good build. There's way better medium chassis for running an AC20. The YLW for example can run an AC/20 and two medium lasers, with a standard engine, and still go comparable speed. The only downside is no jumpjets but well worth the tradeoff to not have to use an XL engine which halves your survivability. Moreover both lasers are in the center torso so it can lose both side torsos and still be somewhat combat effective.

[Carrioncrows]

Khobai, on 22 May 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

Thats not even a good build. There's way better medium chassis for running an AC20. The YLW for example can run an AC/20 and two medium lasers, with a standard engine, and still go comparable speed. The only downside is no jumpjets but well worth the tradeoff to not have to use an XL engine which halves your survivability. Moreover both lasers are in the center torso so it can lose both side torsos and still be somewhat combat effective.

If you play in any sort of competitive league you'll know that if you have 50 tons, you use it on a Treb missile or ppc boat, or a CN9-A - usual 3 srm6's and 2 meds

But at 45 tons the ability to free up 5 tons for another mech and in return you suffer zero drop in firepower is really a great trade off.

Sure when you compare everything straight up everyone should just roll Atlas DDC's because it's "BETTER", but the Blackjack does have it's place and can run a AC20 as well as the YLW, however as you pointed out the YLW is going to be tougher, as it should it's also 5 tons heavier.