49 replies to this topic

[Nikijih]

Alistair Winter, on 19 May 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Are you trying to argue that this makes sense? I already know about the neurohelmet. But being able to control a huge battlemech as if it were an extension of your own body, and then needing a 1980's style joystick to indicate if you want to go forward or backward... that's the most ridiculous concept ever devised in sci-fi.

It's kind of like if Neo had to shout "Ctrl + Alt + Delete" to get out of the Matrix.

As far as im concerned, thats precisely what Neo does to get out of the Matrix. Why do you think he has to find a phone and go "get me out"? For all intents and purposes, thats his Ctrl+Alt+Del.

Does the Neurohelmet make perfect realistic sense? Of course no, its a dated Sci-Fi serie after all. But it makes enough sense to explain it in the lore. You cannot take concious control of the machine by thoughts, their technology is simply not advanced enough for it. Even Justin Xiang's neural interface only acts as a surrogate joystick as it functions exactly like one. He still cannot plug directly to the Mech.

What their technology does allow, however, is for subconcious control of the gyros. It essentially capts the pilot's own sense of equilibrium through the relay sensors, which is closer to being reflexive than intellectual, and uses that to balance the micromanagement of the mech's movements, allowing pilots to use simple devices like joysticks for the gross commands. Thats actually a bit like how modern prostetics work by capting the nervous signal through the muscle to recreate the full movement, and yes, in that optic, it makes plenty of sense.

Edited by Nikijih, 19 May 2013 - 01:21 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

Nikijih, on 19 May 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

Does the Neurohelmet make perfect realistic sense? Of course no, its a dated Sci-Fi serie after all. But it makes enough sense to explain it in the lore.

This is starting to look like a discussion between Warhammer 40,000 fans trying to explain things like Titans. My point was simply that it's ridiculous. Pointing out that there's some kind of explanation in the lore doesn't change that.

Nikijih, on 19 May 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

What their technology does allow, however, is for subconcious control of the gyros. It essentially capts the pilot's own sense of equilibrium through the relay sensors, which is closer to being reflexive than intellectual, and uses that to balance the micromanagement of the mech's movements, allowing pilots to use simple devices like joysticks for the gross commands. Thats actually a bit like how modern prostetics work by capting the nervous signal through the muscle to recreate the full movement, and yes, in that optic, it makes plenty of sense.

That's completely different. A mechwarrior can, with the power of thought, get his battlemech to open its left hand, move it behind its back and scratch its behind. That's a complex movement. Does he really need a joystick to move his feet forward, with that level of control? If his battlemech had a giant piano, would the mechwarrior play the piano by yanking his joystick back and forth? It's ridiculous. The only reason it's there, is because it would look less heroic if the Mechwarrior did everything with his mind, like Yoda.

Anyway, that's a digression and I have nothing more to say about the subject.

Vassago Rain, on 19 May 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

No one would play it, just like 8 manz.

Yep, basically the same thing.

[hammerreborn]

PanzerMagier, on 18 May 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

I don't think we're all on the same page. There are many subjective opinions on what "hardcore" mode should be.
Such as:

->a mode where Endosteel/DHS/ecm/etc is disabled.

->Stock mech, no custom modifications whatsoever

->harsh environment (halved armour, overheating = 95% of being dead)

-> a mode where you have no virtual hud, only hud figures displayed on cockpit monitors (with the possible exception of a crosshair)

To be honest I'd like to see all these mutators come into play!

Also, I think your idea of hardcore mode would definitely be relished by veterans who have nothing else to spend c-bills on. Albeit I'd rather not try it yet until we're sitting a fairly balanced environment.

Ya what this guy said. How is outside things "hardcore"? Nothing makes the actual gameplay different than normal.

Stocks + no HUD = good time

[Alistair Winter]

hammerreborn, on 19 May 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

Ya what this guy said. How is outside things "hardcore"? Nothing makes the actual gameplay different than normal.
Stocks + no HUD = good time

I'd be stoked to see it.

The idea that "outside things" are hardcore comes from the fact that the gameplay would change drastically if dying meant losing all your XP and your 20 million pimped out Atlas mech, and starting over again in a trial mech. Gameplay would change.

But hey, I'd be up for even more drastic changes. The more realistic, the better, in my book.

Neverfar, on 19 May 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Oh? For a moment let's accept the premise that "the difference between a young person and an old person, (as you passively-aggressively imply in your first line), is how much they like repeating tiresome memes that have been bounced back and forth nonstop for literally years now".
I'm not anti-meme. Hell, I authored a few Courage Wolf additions that circulated for a little while. But anything can get boring with too much repetition, except I suppose to really insecure people that use the "joke" as some sort of weird bonding ritual. "zomg i like bacon and cookies and beer and boobies too add me to your friends list!!!1"
Do you know how many times I've seen someone say "lol ur old" in knee-jerk defense of that bacon thing alone?
If that makes me old, guilty as charged. I'm awfully young to be old, though.

So you're posting in this thread which I started about different game modes for Mechwarrior Online, with the sole intent of making a joke about the how old and stale the bacon meme has become, and then you say I'm passive-aggressive?

Look, if you want to discuss how you're different from people who "pound memes repetitively into the ground" and happy with being casual, just send me a link and I'll come discuss it with you in another thread or forum. That's not primarily what this thread is about

Edited by Alistair Winter, 19 May 2013 - 02:15 PM.

[Puppeteerxerxes]

PanzerMagier, on 18 May 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

I really doubt we'll have "hardcore" pilots. Pgi would lose too much money on people complaining "I bought stuff for this account and now the pilot is dead" In fact I doubt anyone is silly enough to play hardcore where your account is at stake.

AT MOST, you'll lose your mech and all the exp for that mech in hardcore mode. I think an easy way to implement this is for small C-BILL or (mc) fee you can convert mechs from hardcore to non-hardcore and vica versa. However if a mech is destroyed in HC it will be gone forever. You can also decide whether a mech should be HC or nonHC when buying it!

Oh another good idea! When using hero mechs in HC. They will never be completely destroyed. Only -out of commision- for which you will have to pay a large Cbill or small (mc) fee to "restore" them. I like this idea more and more. Maybe if I add enough (mc) ideas, PGI will take a look at it XD

I like the hero mech idea actually. I would suggest though that headshot = dead, but in order to keep ragequitting from happening maybe allow accumulated cbills or mechs of the dead hardcore character be "willed" to the normal account character instead.

I vote no XP bonuses for the mechs, and no modules for this mode. Tie consumable air strikes and artillery to commanders only, 1 use per team or something like that.

To keep people from farming mechs from hardcore to regular make your starter mech from hardcore be paid for out of your regular account funds.

I would like some R&R, to start forcing more balance away from the super souped up assaults right now. Any given game I play could be a battle of elite assault unit lances from any canon battletech unit. Who ever saw 4 atlases in a lance. Most assault company lances might have 2 at best, and still have light and medium mechs. THis game has gotten VERY tonnage heavy, especially since HSR

[Zylo]

Hardcore mode would probably see even less use than the 8-man pre-made group match system.

[Nikijih]

Quote

That's completely different. A mechwarrior can, with the power of thought, get his battlemech to open its left hand, move it behind its back and scratch its behind. That's a complex movement. Does he really need a joystick to move his feet forward, with that level of control?

I have read many Btech books, and i NEVER heard of activating the arms through thoughts.

[Pht]

This.

[Nikijih]

Pht, on 19 May 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

This.

Thanks for that link Pht, thats precisely what I was talking about:

Quote

One, possibly two joysticks with multiple triggers that control a reticule on the main HUD (heads up display) that indicates to the 'Mech what it should aim at, a throttle stick, and a pair of foot pedals which control walking direction and jump jet activation.

Arms arnt controlled by thoughts at all. They are controlled through the weapon system.

Edited by Nikijih, 19 May 2013 - 02:49 PM.

[karoushi]

Everything overall would have to be balanced to a point that these concepts would work in hardcore mode, so that you didn't get your mech blown up in the first 2 or 3 minutes of a match like you do now (unless you were really doing something foolish like running straight at the enemy and they got a lucky shot).

If the mechs were a lot stronger and the games economy was balanced many of these possible features wouldn't be an issue at all; However the only way I'd accept losing my mech when destroyed is if there was a system to prevent absolute destruction without absolute focus on said destruction. Perhaps when armor is blown off it reveals a much harder to hit substructure. Or something.

Some of these hardcore features would really need to have a high degree of material support behind them to actually function, nobody would want to play if they got their mech blown up every match and lost it and had to buy a new, it would have to be able to survive fairly well and there might even need to be some form of mech insurance (you'd have to pay for it so it wouldn't be free) to recover all or some of your loses so that people would not have to deal with losing everything.

I am all for hardcore mode and in-fact making my game very hardcore but it becomes very definitely about balance at that point because if your game is so hardcore without balance users will see it as a punishment or even as a "job" just to play, not entertainment, not enjoyment ~ and they will leave for awhile until they assume it gets better or quit all together.

Balance is, as always, Key.

[BlightFang]

I would like to see hardcore mode implemented as the primary mode for community warfare, and balanced so that you lose income if you take on too high ranked missions(more risk more reward).

I also think hardcore mode would be meaningless if penalties are negated just by throwing real money at the game. Hence I think they should remove all mc bonuses, exp bonuses, and the ability to buy anything but fluff with mc.

[Alistair Winter]

karoushi, on 19 May 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

Some of these hardcore features would really need to have a high degree of material support behind them to actually function, nobody would want to play if they got their mech blown up every match and lost it and had to buy a new, it would have to be able to survive fairly well and there might even need to be some form of mech insurance (you'd have to pay for it so it wouldn't be free) to recover all or some of your loses so that people would not have to deal with losing everything.

Why wouldn't they want to play even if they get their mech blown up and lose it?

Let me give you an example of how it might work, in a slightly less hardcore mode.
1st match: Start with nothing except a small amount of money, so you get a cheap stock mech, maybe a Commando. Let's say you survive the match.
2nd match: You have more money, so you either upgrade your mech, buy a slightly better stock mech, like a Cicada, or save your money for an even better mech if you survive the next match. Let's say you save your money and survive this match.
3rd match: You can now afford a heavy stock mech, or some expensive upgrades for your smaller mech. If you spend all your money on, say, a Dragon, and die the 3rd match, you will have to start all over again if you lose it. If you spend some of your money on a Hunchback, you will still have enough money to get a new medium mech if you die.

Any player you see in a stock Assault mech has probably survived 5-6 battles. Maybe he won 4 and lost 1 by cap and still survived. Depending on how long you want to make the climb to a custom Atlas, you can change the C-bill and XP rewards of each mission. Maybe assault mechs should be so rare that you normally only see 1 on each team.

This would be similar to CounterStrike in that you start out with a pistol in your first match. If you win, you can maybe afford an MP5 in your next match. Win again, maybe an M4 and some armor. Win again, maybe a sniper rifle.

If only stock mechs were allowed, this kind of game mode would be a lot easier to implement, of course.

karoushi, on 19 May 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

I am all for hardcore mode and in-fact making my game very hardcore but it becomes very definitely about balance at that point because if your game is so hardcore without balance users will see it as a punishment or even as a "job" just to play, not entertainment, not enjoyment ~ and they will leave for awhile until they assume it gets better or quit all together.
Balance is, as always, Key.

Well, most players don't want a game that is too difficult. That is why games today are a lot easier to finish than they used to be. In Diablo 3, I think I completed normal difficulty with 5 characters without dying once. In Diablo 1, try completing the game one time with each of the 3 characters without dying a single time. Most people can't do it, unless they're extremely cautious.

However, there are some games that cater to the people who want realism and difficulty. There's a "hyper-realistic" Fallout 3 mode where you constantly need to eat, drink and sleep, and where the difficulty of avoiding radiation poisoning is much higher than normal. Weapons do more damage than normal. If you die, you lose your character. Some people want that extra challenge. That's why it's called hardcore mode.

[Pht]

Nikijih, on 19 May 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

Actually, thats what the NEURO in Neurohelmet is for. It connects the mech to your brain waves, and its them that are controlling the Gyros (mostly subconciously), essentially being responsible for all the micro-management of movements while the pilot only indicates the direction through joystick inputs. Even that can be cirvumvented with proper equipment (Justin Xiang Allard's Yen-Lo-Wang was piloted partially through a neural interface since the pilot has no left arm). In essence, the mech IS an extention of your body.

Um... in short ... NO. The neurohelmet does not do what you're saying here.

It's 99% for keeping the 'Mech upright. The other 1% doesn't do what you're saying here.

As for the micro-managed movements, the NH doesn't do that. The mech actually doese these things.

Oh, and the 'Mech is not turned by the joysticks. The foot pedals control what direction you're going.

Exactly how torso twisting is done is open to some debate; nothing authoritative on this has been published.

Source for the above comments: http://mwomercs.com/...y-an-education/

Particularly the Neurohelmet, computers, and cockpit/controls sections.

Essentially, the pilot keeps the 'Mech upright (no small task, and the 'mech actually can't do this), directs it where to go, and directs it what mode to use. A more skillful mech pilot is one who understands how his 'mech can achieve these things and how to help it do these things successfully.

TechManual pg 42-3 said:

BattleMechs are very capable and smart robots, with most of their intelligence embodied in the DI computer network. But they are not truly autonomous. Partly because they have so much firepower and could cause so much destruction if something went wrong, virtually all of the higher decisions are left in the hands of MechWarriors. MechWarriors decide when the BattleMech moves, where the BattleMech moves to and whom the BattleMech shoots.

....

Speaking of movement, this is another task that the BattleMech sweats over.

...

Each footstep is chosen to compensate for outside forces and in anticipation of the terrain as best possible, which the DI computer carefully observes through a BattleMech’s many sensors. BattleMechs will also attempt to move their limbs and torso to avoid collisions with terrain, like trees. The nimble twists of a light BattleMech slipping through a forest are not merely the action of a talented MechWarrior, but the ’Mech’s own DI computer attempting to avoid the trees.

http://www.battlecor...roducts_id=1876

Edited by Pht, 19 May 2013 - 03:58 PM.

[Nikijih]

Quote

Um... in short ... NO. The neurohelmet does not do what you're saying here.

It's 99% for keeping the 'Mech upright. The other 1% doesn't do what you're saying here.

As for the micro-managed movements, the NH doesn't do that. The mech actually doese these things.

Ok and let me ask you this: how does it keep the mech upright? Through the gyros by linking to the pilot's equilibrium. Aka, it does EXACTLY what im saying it does.

Quote

The MechWarrior normally uses the Neurohelmet to compensate for what the 'Mech's Gyroscope system and MMSS system cannot handle, helping the 'Mech to "regain its bearings," and to tell a 'Mech when and in what direction it should be off balance.

The gyroscope system is not the micromanagement point, its just a sub-macro. The micro is the neurohelmet's interface with it allowing for fine tuning. Or I guess thats just how I saw it, no point arguing semantics.

Altho you were right abou the joystick. I guess I got confused cause i'd just re-read the J.Allard passage in Warrior trilogy where they describe his arm and they speak of the agro mech remote system on which the neural interfaces it uses as a proxy is based, dunno why i just transfered that right up

Edited by Nikijih, 19 May 2013 - 04:28 PM.

[Pht]

Nikijih, on 19 May 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

Ok and let me ask you this: how does it keep the mech upright? Through the gyros by linking to the pilot's equilibrium. Aka, it does EXACTLY what im saying it does.

Um ... you said:

Quote

Actually, thats what the NEURO in Neurohelmet is for. It connects the mech to your brain waves, and its them that are controlling the Gyros (mostly subconciously), essentially being responsible for all the micro-management of movements while the pilot only indicates the direction through joystick inputs.

This is what I was replying to. Emphasis added.

Quote

The gyroscope system is not the micromanagement point, its just a sub-macro. The micro is the neurohelmet's interface with it allowing for fine tuning. Or I guess thats just how I saw it, no point arguing semantics.

The gyroscope system doesn't handle the micromanagement of the 'mech's movements. I directly quoted from the TM source on the topic - it's the Diagnostic Interpretation (DI) computer that handles the micromanagement of the 'mech's movements.

[Nikijih]

Lol at this point we are arguing semantics and my shift is over. I pull my hat to you, you got good info.

[Pht]

NP man. Just keeping stuff straight.

[Lupin]

REAL risk, killed in combat and lose match means your mech is lost.

[Mechteric]

I think Hardcore mode should also be 1x armor values instead of 2x.

[Shae Starfyre]

I would like to see the following:

1.) RnR (without free ammo, and full replacement scenarios like you are suggesting)
2.) Stock Mechs Only
3.) Lose Mechs with Headshot (simulates YOUR dead, and the winning teams gets the Mech).
4.) An indicator on your Mech (like ranks) to show how long you have been playing the same Mech and surviving - different leader board of sorts).
5.) MC is earned not by kills, base grabbing, etc., but by salvage only (revamp salvage mechanics to be worth this change) - imagine the headshot scenario, nearly full value for the salvage, and/or you have a damaged Mech in bay and parts. - crap, no MC in this scenario, hardcore right? You have to salvage to build a stock Mech. Only MC can get you out of a hole - cannot transfer CB from normal game.
6.) a completely different set up enhancement gaining - only hardcore Mechs can gain, but, you no longer need 3 variants to achieve mastery - you may never reach this due to new salvage and loss rules).

That about does it.

This is how I would pay for the game; MC only Hardcore.

Edited by Aphoticus, 20 May 2013 - 12:26 PM.