153 replies to this topic

[Nikijih]

PaintedWolf, on 19 May 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

Okay, I don't agree with all your points, but saying that is True- Does that not Confirm my Argument over Gamers prefering convenience over difficulty?

Consumers prefer convenience. I really think, 99% of the time it is that simple.

Again, you demonstrate how little you grasp your own vocabulary.

Convenience is not the opposite of difficulty! THEY DO NOT OPPOSE EACH OTHER!

A game can be hard AND convenient. That is actually how the SC franchise built its popularity. The controls are easy to get used to and the UI is very convenient, but the skill curve is humongous. Just like a game can be easy while being inconveniant, bit like the PC port of Allan Wake (easy game, controls makes it a PITA to walk in a straight line). You dont seem to understand that those two elements, difficulty and convenience, have nothing to do with each other.

- Simplicity/complexity: have to do with the amount of mechanics, their degree of involvement required from the player and their interaction/synergy throughout the game.

- Difficulty: have to do with how hard or easy a game is, how much efforts or skill it requires from the player to beat it, or how steep the skill curve (difference between a good and a bad player) is.

- Convenience: have to do with the accessibility of the game through its UI and its controls.

There is obviously a correlation here, as in a complexe game tends to be harder because it requires more involvement. But there is no equation there. You could make a game that requires one button press only and it will be extremely simple. Make that button the left mouse and it will also be very convenient. Make it so you have a random window of 0.5 sec to press it tho, and you will also have a very difficult game.

Edited by Nikijih, 19 May 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[Livewyr]

PaintedWolf, on 19 May 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

Hawken sucks because it allows for almost no customization options. Everything looks and feels exactly the same. You cannot boat in Hawken, nor can you diversify. It is like a cloning experiment gone horribly wrong.

Hawken is a mech skin over CoD from my understanding. It's also wildly simple.. just like CoD.

PaintedWolf, on 19 May 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

As for Starcraft, between Brood War and SC2 Gameplay was heavily simplified. Blizzard took out a lot of units- including mind control. Also the number of units and such is very small. In fact gameplay barely changed from SC to SC2, the biggest difference being less units (which imo made the game less appealing. )

Precisely- in Broodwar (my favorite of the franchise) everything had a positive and a negative to it. You could boat carriers if you wanted to, but some guy with half a brain could throw a group of cloaked wraiths in, kill your observer if you had one, and commence dismantling your helpless force. (Wraiths in turn got jacked up by everything else..) SC2 Made the game even simpler. Mass voids and win for Protoss. Mass Marines/Marauders/Medevacs and win for Terran, or play zerg and just try and mass something faster than the others.

They made it simpler, and less "tedious" (easier) and it lost a lot of appeal. Blizzard did to Starcraft in SC2, what people are advocating PGI do to MW:O- in order to appeal to the masses.

PaintedWolf, on 19 May 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

But let's consider SC2 to Age of Empires or Civilization. What does better? Arguably, AOE and Civ are far more complex games, but SC2 and CnC have typically blown them away. Why? Because they are more convenient and easier to use. People spend less time being stressed out and more time having fun and that creates a more immersive environment.

AoE is more clumped with SC/CnC than Civ.. but anyways, they did better because they're closer to the center of effort.

In Civ every detail is planned, and you have plenty of time to do it, and you must. That appeals to a certain crowd.
CoD has no plan, only instinct and reaction(twitch). Experience tells you that a person going in that build usually turns around and watches the door- reaction, toss a grenade or just come through the door guns a'blazin. Orr just march around and shoot someone else faster than they're going to shoot you. That kind of game appeals to the opposit end. Less thought, faster trigger.

RTS (not turn based) is a mix of requiring fast decision-making, and precision micromanagement. Ergo it appeals to both sides of the spectrum to a degree, moreso to the thought side though. MW:O should be more towards CoD, but not all the way there like is being advocated.

PaintedWolf, on 19 May 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

Civ and AOE games survive because while being more tedious, they allow for more customization options.

PaintedWolf, on 19 May 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

When people want complexity in a game what they usually mean is customization options to express themselves, not increased difficulty/labor requirements.

Broodwar offered no customization, you had what you had.
The interest became "out-thinking" your opponent.

So I would say that it isn't customization that determined the success of games, but the complexity and multiple levels of thought requirement that made them appealing.

Turn-based = All thought.
RTS = All thought, with natural talent of thinking/executing quickly.
MWO (Should be) High speed thought with a lot of natural talent and precision for execution.
CoD = No thought, just be faster and more precise than the other guy. (That's why noob tubes are hated so much..)

This game doesn't need to go any close to CoD than it already is. (PPC Sniper or bust!)

[PaintedWolf]

Okay I realize one of my points may seem contradictory:

I say the game should be Easier to Use/More Convenient, but at the same time I like the Challenge/Complexity. This makes sense when you break it down:

1- By convenient/easier to use, I mean weapons track better. We aren't playing a WW2 Simulator where everything is dead-fire and also this helps balance missiles vs. other weapon types. Also, it is just in general more fun if weapons have some kind of tracking.

2- This keeps things challenging because now everyone can do it, so the Challenge is Player Driven instead of the product of clumsy/counter-intuitive/irritating game mechanics.

When I want a Challenge in a Multi-Player Game, I want it to be because my enemy is strategizing, and creating innovative builds, and acting bad ***. I want a fight between two-super high-tech bad *****, that is one reason I like MWO (that and customization. )

I do not want it because we are all super-gimped. Because targeting is so difficult. Because weapons fire so slow. Because heat management is so complex. Because missiles do not lock. Etc. I do not want MWO to be a WW2 Tank Simulator.

In other words- I want UFC/WWF, NOT Cripple Fight where two guys in a wheel chair try to beat each other with canes.

A lot of players by "Skill" seem to mean "Difficult to Use." That to me does not really add much in terms of skill that could not be provided by both players having an equally Easy/Efficient Interface/Targeting System, however it is annoying.

That is not to say I want to get rid of aiming, -some- autotracking for say SRMs, or other weapons is not the same as either aiming or not aiming. We are not Binary Machines so I hope we can think in a little more nuanced a manner then that.

In other words I want to be Fighting with the other Player, not my Controls.

[PaintedWolf]

Also a lot of this comes down to what we think should be Priority.

I would say one big area of Priority IMO is to give Ballistic Weapons (ACs and Gauss) better graphics, especially the AC-20/Gauss which look really bad right now. Dull and uninteresting as plain bread.

Others, especially the hardcore forumites (which represent a very, very small amount of players) will say it is things like ECM, MG/Flamer Balance, and making sure Missiles are not "Too Easy" to use.

Should it not be obvious, that claims like the latter are made to make the game more exclusive, while what I consider Priority is made to draw in a larger audience? I want the player base to grow, and it seems like they want the player base to shrink until there is nothing but THE "Hard Core" TT Forumites left.

Basically, if this was a movie their suggestion would be "Okay less shots of the half-naked super hot chicks. More shots of the old lady talking about "back in the old times" when she used to collect egg-shell cartons. We want our film to appeal to a more sophisticated audience."

I am not saying you go for the cheap or money shot every time, but sometimes, especially in a competitive gaming market, a little bit of common sense can go a long way.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 19 May 2013 - 11:31 AM.

[Keifomofutu]

Koniving, on 19 May 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

I decorated for the occasion.

When everyone complained about streaks being easy mode, they actually played like this:


How they work now:




Play Skyrim, turn on Godmode, and type in CompleteAllQuestsNow.

Game's over. You won. Now was that satisfying?

Quoting for great justice. These two videos say it all really. The streak death orbit just spells out how broken they are. Screw TT you should be able to make them miss. Especially if you are in a spider or something with JJ and maneuverability.

[Carrioncrows]

Watch this:

Then tell me what counter play the streaks have?

They have none, it's a Bad weapon.

[Belorion]

Wispsy, on 19 May 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

Are you honestly saying that when you fired a ballistic weapon at an enemy through a wall or teammate it hits the enemy anyway? And the lockon time is rather short I mean that seems like you are saying "I missed my shot so I need to wait 4 seconds and maybe hit the next one maybe not, depending on both pilots skill, but that is just the same as me having to hold my mouse in his general direction for half a second and I will guarantee a hit if he DARES TO STAND WITHIN MY VISION(or my teams)".

I don't shoot my ballistics into buildings or friendly mechs.

Carrioncrows, on 19 May 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Watch this:

Then tell me what counter play the streaks have?

They have none, it's a Bad weapon.

Shutting down, ECM, out maneuvering them (getting behind them, behind a friendly, behind building, maneuvering in such a manner they can't get lock)...

[Keifomofutu]

Belorion, on 19 May 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

I don't shoot my ballistics into buildings or friendly mechs.



Shutting down(BAP), ECM(BAP), out maneuvering them(hope he's really slow) (getting behind them, behind a friendly, behind building, maneuvering in such a manner they can't get lock)...

Counterplay isn't "I hope he didn't bring a magic off switch like ECM". Counterplay means that you can still react to the guy but you have to change your playstyle a bit to compensate. Back when streaks could miss it meant lights had to remember to move laterally as much as possible. Streaks weren't a win button they were a tool with weaknesses and strengths.

Assaults couldn't dodge but they could weather the storm and get the kill faster than a streakboat could.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 19 May 2013 - 12:16 PM.

[Wispsy]

Belorion, on 19 May 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

I don't shoot my ballistics into buildings or friendly mechs.

Belorion, on 19 May 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

Yes, but for those missed shots, I had to wait for the lock-on to the light. Plus it is possible to miss with streaks if they run over a hill or behind a building or worse behind one of your team mates, where this isn't possible with ballistics.

What are you saying here? Seriously...
So SSRMs are harder then ballistics because if you shoot whilst teammates are standing directly between you and the target at 270m then you will hit your teammate?

But if you do the same with ballistics you are just shooting your team...
Sound like bias?

[Carrioncrows]

Belorion, on 19 May 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

Shutting down, ECM, out maneuvering them (getting behind them, behind a friendly, behind building, maneuvering in such a manner they can't get lock)...

Let examine your answer:

Shutting down. This is about as valid of a tactic as saying simply exit the match, which is to say it's not a tactic.

ECM - Only 4 mechs in game right now have ECM. So if you don't have one of those mechs your screwed, worse you do take ECM and so do they, they counter your ECM and still use their streaks. Grats this has solved nothing.

Out maneuvering them - You say putting a team mate or a building between you and the shooter that makes the streaks hit the object skill on your part. I don't. I call this lazyness on the shooters part. He knows where his rounds are going to go and that it will most likely hit something other than his target in that situation, he just doesn't care.

You can't out run streaks - They are too fast.
You can't out maneuver streaks - They do instant 90 degree angles, they have zero missile agility.
Even the fastest mechs against the slowest of targets can only stay out of a target's LOS for a few moments, They don't need to hold their weapons on you, only touch your icon with their cursor to maintain their target lock every few seconds.

Once someone has lock, you are screwed and with the target decay module you are really screwed as they only have to touch your icon for a mili-sec with their targeting cursor to maintain lock, all the while firing.

So facing someone with Streaks limits my choices to 3 - Shut down, ECM or as you say out maneuver them. These are not valid choices.

This is the very epitome of bad counter-play.

I get it your having a ball with your streaks, some of us are not. I don't enjoy the game more with streaks in it, I enjoy it less.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 19 May 2013 - 12:47 PM.

[Wispsy]

Carrioncrows, on 19 May 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

So facing someone with Streaks limits my choices to 3 - Shut down, ECM or as you say out maneuver them. These are not valid choices.

This is the very epitome of bad counter-play.

I get it your having a ball with your streaks, some of us are not. I don't enjoy the game more with streaks in it, I enjoy it less.

And then we have tuesdays patch which eliminates 2 of those!

[Livewyr]

Carrioncrows, on 19 May 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Watch this:

Then tell me what counter play the streaks have?

They have none, it's a Bad weapon.

Interesting video.. since you've applied the Counter Play question to the Streak SRM2.. I will apply the same question to every weapon in the game.

I'll help you out and give you three of the answers.
LRMs (Counterplay of getting inside 180meters and having a hey day...)
PPCs(Counterplay of face hugging and reducing their effectiveness dramatically, the hug of death)
Flamers (A stretch: Counter play of the mech using the flamers also being increasingly vulnerable to heat problem.)

What other weapons have counter-play?
List to choose from:
SL, SPL
ML, MPL
LL, LPL, ERLL
ERPPC
AC2, 5,10, 20, UAC5
MGs
Gauss
SRMs


If you're going to apply a standard to one weapon in the game, be able to apply it to the others for comparison- otherwise you're just taking it out of context.
----------------------------------------------
One minor edit: I support an agility nerf to streaks though I don't find it that important; but I don't support specious arguments.

Edited by Livewyr, 19 May 2013 - 01:22 PM.

[Screech]

Livewyr, on 19 May 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

What other weapons have counter-play?
List to choose from:
SL, SPL
ML, MPL
LL, LPL, ERLL
ERPPC
AC2, 5,10, 20, UAC5
MGs
Gauss
SRMs

Don't run in a straight line. Covers pretty all of those.

There ain't much good about SSRM these days.

[hammerreborn]

Gauss: easily exploded

All weapons: need to aim, comparatively to streaks

[Deathlike]

Counter Streaks with ECMHammer?

Wait a few days for BAP to get its buff and it will be StreakWarrior Online for sure...

[Carrioncrows]

Livewyr, on 19 May 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

*snip*

Yes, there is counter play for each and every one of those weapons.

With the exception of LRM's (they have their own section) these are all skill based weapons. Just by taking evasive action on your part dramatically increase's the skill required to land shots with these weapons. They each have their own strengths and weaknesses, this is good counter play and very basic. There are unique and different ones for each weapon type but I won't go into that.

@ Neverfar

LRM's have good counter play even though they are guidance weapons because they have missile agility, reasonable speed, can be intercepted by AMS, can be tanked on other body parts or can be led into an obstruction, or they can be caused to miss.


When someone launches LRM's I have lots of options to minimize or control how much or how little damage I take. You can evade the missiles and retreat to cover or you can bullrull the target and take the full amount in attempt to get under the guns.

There is no counter-play with Streaks.


Simply having missile agility in streaks (If you don't know what that means watch the first video where the commando falls down down, the missiles track but they dont' turn fast enough if your angle is too extreme. = missile agility.

The other part of the argument is to make SRM's a guidance based system but with missile agility. Because that's just cannon, SRM's right now are what someone would call Rocket Launchers, they are unguided. Now streaks can have MORE missile agility than regular SRM's or have all of it's missiles track that's fine but there still needs to enough missile agility that creates good counter play. Guy can dodge, attempt to spoof the missiles, or any number of choices.

I can go on and on, but the basic point is made: Streaks are bad they need fixed, while your at it fix SRM's as well.

[Nikijih]

Quote

[color=#959595]When I want a Challenge in a Multi-Player Game, I want it to be because my enemy is strategizing, and creating innovative builds, and acting bad ***. I want a fight between two-super high-tech bad *****, that is one reason I like MWO (that and customization. )[/color]

[color=#959595]I do not want it because we are all super-gimped. Because targeting is so difficult. Because weapons fire so slow. Because heat management is so complex. Because missiles do not lock. Etc. I do not want MWO to be a WW2 Tank Simulator.[/color]

Sounds to me like what you are looking for is a completely different IP. May I suggest Gundam or Armored Core? MWO is not a twitch game, never was, hope itll never be. Mechs in Mechwarrior are (relatively) slow, ammo weapons are used sparringly and lasers have to be staggered. If you read books, you will notice a LOT of scenario in which tactical play means NOT returning fire due to things like heat levels or aim angles. Battletech is about tactical combat, and that means that yes, itll be closer to a Tank simulator than to a japanese anime.

What you are asking for is essentially for everone to be OP. Let me tell you EXACTLY what will happen in such a scenario: everyone blows up left and right before being really able to react and we are all back in CS getting AWPed while spamming the jump key. Please stop lobbying to have MWO turned into another mindless COD.

Quote

Counterplay isn't "I hope he didn't bring a magic off switch like ECM". Counterplay means that you can still react to the guy but you have to change your playstyle a bit to compensate.

For one thing, yes, counterplay in a mech customization game includes preparations. If you can counter someone through setup, build or even team composition, thats a counter right there.

That being said, I want to adress the second half of your sentence: you are wrong.
1) zig zagging can make SSRM tagging quite hard. It requires a solid 3-4 seconds of target hovering to get a lock on lights without a TAG. Dont give him that.
2) Cover. You see someone with SSRM behind ya? Turn the first corner you see. Not only will it make him loose the tag or interrupt the missile's path, but when used well in conjonction with zig-zagging it can make tagging nearly impossible for longuer than 2-3 seconds at a time.
3) dead angles. If you are faster than him, then all you have to do is stay in his back. Most mechs with missiles have them hooked on the Torsos and not the arms, meaning that you are also untaggable from the sides.

1+2+3 = your counter to SSRMs.

If that fails, you still also have the generic MWO counter: bust his SSRM. The most dangerous ones are on the arms (like the commando's), so you know where to focus your own fire. Take the arm or ST out and suddently no more danger.

And guess what. EVEN IF THAT FAILS AS WELL, you can still counter them through teamplay. Send your heavies after the SSRM wielding mechs to draw their fire and come in from behind. Hardly something hard to do on a light mech, and their SSRMs will mean they dont have the firepower to face down another mech of the same class or above with heavyer weaponry.

Seriously man, SSRM are *FAR* from "uncounterable". You just arn't trying. You are talking about them as if you felt entitled to not having to outmaneuver heavyer mechs in order to take em out in a Light. Sorry mate, but thats kind of the point of that armor class. You are NOT supposed to stay in the open exchanging fire with heavies and assaults and expecting to win. SSRMs are nearly impossible to dodge oncee launched, true. Thats not to say its undodgable, simply that the lock-on is what you need to dodge.

Edited by Nikijih, 19 May 2013 - 02:59 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

LRMs are not easy mode. They require a lot more thought process because if you just fire at every target you see you will run out of ammo and do no damage. And its not just see mech, fire, done. Most times you need to hold target and try to keep LoS for Artemis. Not to mention TAG vs ECM.

And they are the only weapon where your opponent gets a warning and time to react to mitigate damage.

You cant really compare them to streaks.

[Belorion]

Keifomofutu, on 19 May 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

Counterplay isn't "I hope he didn't bring a magic off switch like ECM". Counterplay means that you can still react to the guy but you have to change your playstyle a bit to compensate. Back when streaks could miss it meant lights had to remember to move laterally as much as possible. Streaks weren't a win button they were a tool with weaknesses and strengths.

Assaults couldn't dodge but they could weather the storm and get the kill faster than a streakboat could.

Are you being thick on purpose? SSRMs curve (the mechanism by which they track mechs) Ballistics, lasers, and normal SRMs don't. The enemy mech can duck behind a building after the streaks are fired causing the streaks to hit the building instead of themselves. Likewise they can maneuver behind a friendly after the streaks are fired causing them to hit your team mate. I use this tactic while trying to avoid both streaks and lrms, while simultaneously doing damage to an enemy.

[Carrioncrows]

Once again lets examine a post and point out the flaws:

Nikijih, on 19 May 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

That being said, I want to adress the second half of your sentence: you are wrong.
1) zig zagging can make SSRM tagging quite hard. It requires a solid 3-4 seconds of target hovering to get a lock on lights without a TAG. Dont give him that.

This is full of so many holes I don't know where to start. How about the middle. Zig Zagging does nothing, you are not trying to use your weapons to actually hit the mech itself, you are locking on to a box sized outline of a mech. Magically easy. And it's 2 seconds btw, but lets take your "Suggestion" and call it fact. Even if you can dodge the willy nilly out of him this isn't counter play.

Picture counter play like a chess match, he makes his move and then you make your move. The above is having your bishop spend the length of the match running away from his queen. It isn't an answer it's only delay'n the inevitable.

Your not actually involved your just avoiding engagement.

How does this differ from someone with lasers or ballistics?

The more time you spend being evasive the harder it is to hit, the more time you spend being precise with your shots the more accurate you are. It's like a slider bar, you go full evasive (dodge, turn torso, ect ect) when it's their turn to fire and slow down to plant your shots when they go full evasive. That's counter play.

Quote

2) Cover. You see someone with SSRM behind ya? Turn the first corner you see. Not only will it make him loose the tag or interrupt the missile's path, but when used well in conjonction with zig-zagging it can make tagging nearly impossible for longuer than 2-3 seconds at a time.

Once again your advice is: don't get locked up by streaks..... (=|

The only way not to get locked up by streaks is to not play the game. It's going to happen, you can run as long as you like but once again that's not good counter play your just running away from the engagement instead of being involved in it.

As I mentioned in the previous post once he has lock he only needs to occasionally have LOS every 3.5 secs to maintain that lock, the rest of the time he just holds down the trigger.

I'll say this again:
If SSRM'***** a building, that is not skill on your part.
That is lazyness on my part because I am holding down the button and don't give a XXXX.

Quote

3) dead angles. If you are faster than him, then all you have to do is stay in his back. Most mechs with missiles have them hooked on the Torsos and not the arms, meaning that you are also untaggable from the sides.

1+2+3 = your counter to SSRMs.

There is no dead angle. Even the fastest mechs versus the slowest mechs can only stay with in a targets rear arc for a few moments at best, and as I said above once he has lock (2 secs) it takes almost zero effort to maintain it. (Touch yer mech with my cursor once every 3.5 secs)

So your advice boils down to:
1. Don't get locked up by streaks by running away.
2. Don't get locked up by streaks by putting a building between you.
3. Don't get locked up by streaks by being out of their LOS.

None of this helps a person against streaks.

What helps a person against Lasers, ballistics, SRM's and LRMs

Evasion - changing elevation, going over rough terrain, jump jetting these all help generate a miss or minimize the amount of damage, like lasers you have to stay on target to deal the full damage.

Torso Rolling - This helps a lot in the case of Lasers in that you can spread his damage out over several locations, it helps a lot in the case of Direct fire weapons in that you can minimize where you don't want to be hit.

Minimum Ranges / Maximum Ranges - You know em, get under them or get over them.

Weapon Speeds - Changing throttle controls can make a person overshoot or undershoot depending on how slow the projectile is.

Mech Locations - Some mechs arms ride low by having higher elevation you can make their ***** hit the dirt, some mechs have horrible vertical torso pitch, being above or below them limits their options.

All of these things are options you can utilize to minimize or avoid damage.

With Streaks doing any of the above doesn't help you.
Evasion - Once they have lock on your missiles don't miss. The guy firing them can be lazy and launch them into cover but it's not evasion on your part. Torso Rolling - Seems like it would work but bug right now where they always tag the Torso's and always do full damage. You can't minimize it at all. Weapon Speeds - It has zero missile agility which means it does instant turns out of the launcher, you don't need LOS just lock on. Min/max - Projectile still fires to fast to out run it. Mech Locations - Missile agility means it doesn't matter where it's fired from it's going to track you.

These are all issues of why Streaks are a bad weapon because they lack counter play.