48 replies to this topic

[Loc Nar]

Foust, on 03 January 2016 - 03:15 PM, said:

MWO applies some scaling to the input when you zoom in. I started working on a way that when you toggle each zoom level that it would counter the scaling so that your movements don't get super sensitive while zoomed in, and return to normal when your zoomed out.

I haven't put much effort into it. I'll see what I can come up with.

I do not believe any scaling is added when you zoom in, it's just that well your zoomed in. Just like if you look through binocculars you have to really move slowly because the perceived motion that far out yadda yadda... it's a trig thing.

Regardless this is very easy to deal with using TARGET and I've had this functionality in my script since 2012 if anyone needs some snips of code to get this going. I have a manual zoom toggle that I can toggle between, and I have an automatic/dynamic one that is tied to advanced zoom.

I rarely use either however, as it highlights an artifact of using absolute zero-order positioning. As soon as you toggle to a different gain, your mech's torso will immediately jump to the new calculated absolute position, as it should really.

If you manually center x/y before going in/out of shifts there is no effect, but the further away from center you get the worse it is. Honestly the best way to play is to turn your gain down to the point of losing a little bit of the mechs range of motion at least in yaw, pitch is much more limited and uses a lot more of the mechanical range of the stick to operate.

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As a question from somebody who just spent cash on a new T16000M (aka ME) do you think I could get away with only removing the built in spring, adding a "resistance disc" (mylar sheet) and using the TARGET software?

Yes you can, and if you do it *correct it will certainly be better than settling for fighting the spring, which of course you can always revert to. A mylar disc will only withstand this abuse if it is machine cut however. The slightest nick in an edge will make one fall to pieces under the load.

Another important ingredient is proper damping grease. I cannot stress this enough. I built that whole mech stick and used it for years before buying real deal damping grease and finally rebuilt it. ho. ly. ****. It's a whole new stick and feels like straight up hydraulic damping now. Very stiff and very smooth.

Here's a demonstration of damping grease vs others


I happen to make machine cut mylar discs as it turns out, although since I make them for something else I'm not sure if they're the right size but you can have one to try if you like, along with some real damping grease. You too Foust (told you a looong time ago I'd cut a proper one... ), pm me if interested...

I make the discs as dust/debris shields for Warthogs, which I also have many other projects cooking with (left hand versions of the grips, replacement gimbals, and much more)

[Foust]

Hang on.

Is that a warthog gimbal?

[Loc Nar]

Foust, on 04 January 2016 - 11:35 AM, said:

Hang on.

Is that a warthog gimbal?

Indeed good sir. This one is set up with dual pendulum centering similar to VKB/CH products although I have included provisions for mechanisms on both sides of the gimbals (Warty has central sensor) to accommodate high mass grips and stick extensions since there is a limit to how strong of springs you can use in such positions.

My MK3 design will undergo one more round of miniaturization which will more easily allow me to use an enclosure/base the same form factor (already fits) and mounting hole pattern as stock Warthog, allowing people to basically bolt it in place. It uses the MX90333 sensor and same kinematics, so it retains TARGET capability etc.

Here's some more pics, although I haven't really made an album detailing this project yet and it's ongoing. I don't even have pics of the printed part I just got from Shapeways that holds the sensor and routes the wires yet

My MK4 versions will use profile cam centering (free-floating center or optional center detente), which I am very fond of, but below is my MK2.

[Foust]

Beautiful. Had I a warthog, I would be volunteering for "beta testing"

[GreenHell]

Thanks for the help guys. Don't worry about the mylar. I've got a sheet laying around and some "blue grease" (looks similar to what they ship covering the springs of good sticks). I'll look into setting up a zoom function within TARGET to see if I can reduce the speed while zoomed.

On that note, even with the TARGET set to -8 (mouse barely moves on screen) I still seem to be VERY inacurate even when not zoomed, and it's for much the same reason as being zoomed. It's simply too twitchy and fast. I've been trying it out with the Marauder MAD-3R and my hit rate with the PPC's has seriously dropped... I almost wish I could set it up more like Steel Batallion, where the hat would move the torso, and the stick itself would move the "fine aim". I know that's not possible with the way TARGET works but I still think it would be awesome.

[Loc Nar]

GreenHell, on 04 January 2016 - 11:01 PM, said:

Thanks for the help guys. Don't worry about the mylar. I've got a sheet laying around and some "blue grease" (looks similar to what they ship covering the springs of good sticks). I'll look into setting up a zoom function within TARGET to see if I can reduce the speed while zoomed.

On that note, even with the TARGET set to -8 (mouse barely moves on screen) I still seem to be VERY inacurate even when not zoomed, and it's for much the same reason as being zoomed. It's simply too twitchy and fast. I've been trying it out with the Marauder MAD-3R and my hit rate with the PPC's has seriously dropped... I almost wish I could set it up more like Steel Batallion, where the hat would move the torso, and the stick itself would move the "fine aim". I know that's not possible with the way TARGET works but I still think it would be awesome.

Unless that blue grease is specifically for damping I guarantee it's a poor substitute for actual damping grease. I've been making relevant assemblies that rely on such greases for a while now and have experimented with quite a few different greases for this and nothing else comes close, even other silica-thickened silicone greases that seem like they would be great.

As to the mylar disc, unless you can machine punch one there's little point. It will split in short order as cracks propagates from the tiny unavoidable nicks on the edges that hand cutting produces.

I have -9 on pitch and -8 on yaw so your gain is fine and you're likely struggling with the effects of using +/-20deg of pitch/roll to control ~40deg of pitch and 180-270deg of yaw. Pitch is manageable but yaw is predictably twitchy due to both non-native input vs output action (using roll to control yaw) as well as such a large mismatch in range of motion.

My stick uses China hat for trimming aim so basically does exactly what you describe although I never use it in practice, I have adequate range of motion in yaw at +/-45deg or so (more if I want but that's all my wrist is good for) and has identical input vs output motion so it's manageable, plus it contributes to needing to recenter. I left the trim in place though because MWO already doesn't even use all the buttons on my HOTAS so there was no motivation to free up that hat...

Here's a snip of TARGET that will give you mouse trim ability on the hat: gain can be adjusted by changing the 50 (milliseconds between 'events') or the 1/-1, which is how far it moves per event and is at its lowest setting. Can be further slowed by increasing time between events or sped up by increasing distance, but values much below 50ms is counted as 'continuous input'. Much longer than 50ms it looks pretty ratchety though...

MapKey(&T16000, H1L, REXEC(0, 50,"TrimDXAxis(MOUSE_X_AXIS, -1);"));  
MapKey(&T16000, H1U, REXEC(0, 50,"TrimDXAxis(MOUSE_X_AXIS, 1);"));
MapKey(&T16000, H1R, REXEC(1, 50,"TrimDXAxis(MOUSE_Y_AXIS, -1);"));  
MapKey(&T16000, H1D, REXEC(1, 50,"TrimDXAxis(MOUSE_Y_AXIS, 1);"));  
 

This could easily be used in conjunction with a shift button so that you can still use the hat as 4 buttons seeing as it's prime real estate and there's not many buttons on the grip as is...

[Rhino 5]

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Using a first-order controller is like trying to move the marble by picking up the sheet of glass with the marble balanced on it and tilting it front/back and side/side to move the marble, then quickly leveling it again when it’s where you want it to be in x/y coordinates. The more you tilt it, the faster the marble moves and the harder it is to make it stop exactly where you want. Your actions generate directional velocity reactions, proportional to the amount of deflection, which must be quickly brought back level to discontinue the input reaction. Controllers made for this task are specifically engineered to facilitate these inputs with ease. Springs hold it level, obvious centers, deadzones etc, and every convenience feature built into it for this mode becomes a hindrance the second you press it into service as a zero-order.[/color]

I just wanted to comment that you might get a kick out of. Back when I was in flight school for helicopters we had a trainer that was exactly this. You had a cyclic stick that controlled the tilt of a plate via cables. On the plate was a bullseye and a marble. The idea was to teach you how to keep the marble in the center to teach fine control for hovering. You're absolutely right about the zero-order as the cyclic control in a helicopter is nothing like a control stick in a fixed wing. Maybe if helicopter simulators were popular we would have more zero-order sticks.

On a side note, since your modification of the TM Cougar are there any other sticks that you have found that are suitable to modification to become zero-order controllers?

Edited by Rhino 5, 30 December 2016 - 09:11 AM.

[AIRBERG]

Hi guys. I know this is an OLD thread and hope you are all still around. I have a HOTAS i'm trying to use and can get the throttle and rudder pedals working just fine but my stick has what feels like a giant deadzone even when setting the deadzone to 0.0

I have a virpil constellation alpha stick, its very sensative and great in flight sims but in MWO its literally unplayable. It feels like I'm drunk piloting with this deadzone. every movement that takes it out of the deadzone slings the cursor across my target, even when sensativity is set to near the lowest possible.

Do you have any ideas what can help eliminate the deadzone?

Thanks and this thread has some awesome write-ups about the differences between inputs. I learned a lot!

[_INFIDEL_]

Anyone able to hjelp with Thrustmaster stick