238 replies to this topic

[Stone Profit]

John MatriX82, on 19 May 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

I'm sorry for the OP and his heavy metal. That's why I'm planning no more to buy Hero Mechs: ballast, gameplay/metagame may render them useless or less effective than what they are supposed.

Take the Ilya Muromets (which I own): in the current direct fire hell, you stand no chance in it when compared to a standard CTF-3D. Got MC's? Instantly any mech you have becomes a hero, you can level to master many variants and mechs in no time and you earn more cbills using whatever you want than being "forced" to use the hero mech.

Anyway, about the screen shake.. if the screen will shake but the crosshair will stand still (like when you get hit by AC fire) poptarters will never have any trouble in shooting stuff away.

Besides this what should really be fixed is the number of JJs. As it is now, basically you can jumpsnipe fine enough with 2JJs on everything, be it a TBT, a CTF-3D, and Highlander or a Catapult. I think a lander with 2JJs should be barely able to leap over very low stuff. I'd increase the overall weight of the JJs by half a ton for every class and make that the screen shakes less as many JJs you dedicate.

Think about it, an highlander would need to find 7.5 tons for 3 JJs (rather than 4 for a couple of them like it is now) and only a 733C or an HM would be good for poptarting (since the former could sport 4 and the latter 5), while the others would simply gain better mobility since they are stuck to 3.

Hmmm. I regularly own 3ds in my muromets. Guess im just good at the game. Its called learn to flank.

John MatriX82, on 19 May 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

I'm sorry for the OP and his heavy metal. That's why I'm planning no more to buy Hero Mechs: ballast, gameplay/metagame may render them useless or less effective than what they are supposed.

Take the Ilya Muromets (which I own): in the current direct fire hell, you stand no chance in it when compared to a standard CTF-3D. Got MC's? Instantly any mech you have becomes a hero, you can level to master many variants and mechs in no time and you earn more cbills using whatever you want than being "forced" to use the hero mech.

Anyway, about the screen shake.. if the screen will shake but the crosshair will stand still (like when you get hit by AC fire) poptarters will never have any trouble in shooting stuff away.

Besides this what should really be fixed is the number of JJs. As it is now, basically you can jumpsnipe fine enough with 2JJs on everything, be it a TBT, a CTF-3D, and Highlander or a Catapult. I think a lander with 2JJs should be barely able to leap over very low stuff. I'd increase the overall weight of the JJs by half a ton for every class and make that the screen shakes less as many JJs you dedicate.

Think about it, an highlander would need to find 7.5 tons for 3 JJs (rather than 4 for a couple of them like it is now) and only a 733C or an HM would be good for poptarting (since the former could sport 4 and the latter 5), while the others would simply gain better mobility since they are stuck to 3.

Hmmm. I regularly own 3ds in my muromets. Guess im just good at the game. Its called learn to flank.

[valkyrie]

Stone Profit, on 20 May 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Hmmm. I regularly own 3ds in my muromets. Guess im just good at the game. Its called learn to flank.


Hmmm. I regularly own 3ds in my muromets. Guess im just good at the game. Its called learn to flank.

I'm morbidly curious as to what your ELO is. It seems the biggest defenders of this meta are such inept pilots they remain blissfully ignorant of the existence of players who can in fact hit the broad side of a barn from the inside.

I'd love to know your IQ as well but that's not as relevant to this specific issue. If my hunch was correct it'd explain a lot though.

[LordBraxton]

The problem was never poptarts, the problem is PPCs.

If a giant target, slowly drifting through the sky, causes this must angst for you.

You obviously are trying to aim with a joystick.

Or need to L2P

Jumping Highlanders and 3Ds are just fodder for any of my speedy land-locked snipers

They better implement this AT THE SAME TIME, they implement a change to heat scale, otherwise its all stalkers all the time baby.

Edited by LordBraxton, 20 May 2013 - 07:46 AM.

[Gallowglas]

I have a Heavy Metal that I've been driving for a while now. I don't see this as a crippling change. Then again, I never relied on poptarting to get my kills. I'll still get to use jumpjets for what I've always used them for. Time will tell if it's a good or bad change. If it's bad, it won't necesarily be permanent. Wouldn't we rather see PGI showing signs that they are aggressively pursuing balance? Haven't a number of people been complaining about how complacent they've been? I like that they're actively balancing.

Hopefully the change won't be too bad for the light mechs though. The Spider in particular seems like it could really suffer if the change isn't handled delicately.

[Chavette]

Edustaja, on 20 May 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

In my opinion a good way to balance out the jump snipers would be adding a predictable "shake". The shake can be unique to the mech or universal depending on how you want it. Maybe the highlander chassis needs more shake to balance it out, maybe it doesn't.

An example of predictable "shake" is the scope sway in planetside 2. If you don't hold your breath the scope sways in a sine wave pattern.

Fig 1. The basic sine wave.

It always starts to the same direction so it is predictable in both magnitude and direction but still makes aiming harder. You either need to know how to compensate for it or wait the reticule to reach a favourable position.

Jump shake could be made similar. You can vary the actual parameters of the wave (amplitude, frequency or starting phase, number of periods it goes through) or even add a decay to it. It could mean that you have high shake during blast off periods that somewhat even out during the drop down period. Having to jump higher would mean more exposure to the jumper.

I was thinking about the same thing, the call of dutys had a ∞ shaped sniper scope movement. You could compensate for it, but it still made your job harder. If you layed down the shape would get smaller, easier to aim longer. I like it because there is skill involved.

valkyrie, on 20 May 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

Schadenfreude: The Thread.

I think it had to do with this thread being the first for many to hear the news, and they simply posted their initial reaction. It probably also didn't help that I was talking about JJs in a non-negative matter so in their eyes I became "that" poptarter they learned to despise over the weeks(even though I don't live/die by the jumping myself).

LordBraxton, on 20 May 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

They better implement this AT THE SAME TIME, they implement a change to heat scale, otherwise its all stalkers all the time baby.

Lol its gonna get crazy, and the problem is PGI for some reason doesn't like the idea of fine-tuning something, they make huge changes, weapons go from terrible to OP back and forth.

Good thing its that they're starting to see it themselves and are willing to set up a test server in the future.

Edited by Chavette, 20 May 2013 - 07:51 AM.

[Enigmos]

When they re-implement collision damage the actual reason for a jumping assault will return. They aren't supposed to be poptart snipers, they are supposed to plant their feet in an opposing Atlas' left eye.

[Stone Profit]

valkyrie, on 20 May 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

I'm morbidly curious as to what your ELO is. It seems the biggest defenders of this meta are such inept pilots they remain blissfully ignorant of the existence of players who can in fact hit the broad side of a barn from the inside.

I'd love to know your IQ as well but that's not as relevant to this specific issue. If my hunch was correct it'd explain a lot though.

So you assume im supporting poptarting (you need learn what metagame actually means) and are horribly wrong, and proceed to insult MY intelligence? The only thing I mentioned was my ability to succeed in a muromets against a 3d. Perhaps you should reexamine your response as well as my post, and then check out a basic reading comprehension course.

Edited by Stone Profit, 20 May 2013 - 07:59 AM.

[Wintersdark]

A side note I admit, but as with Chavette, I'm so damn glad they are setting up a test server, so we can help at least catch the most ridiculously bad problems without being drowned out in the regular baseless omahgerditschanged qq that pops up with every patch.

[valkyrie]

Stone Profit, on 20 May 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

So you assume im supporting poptarting (you need learn what metagame actually means) and are horribly wrong, and proceed to insult MY intelligence? The only thing I mentioned was my ability to succeed in a muromets against a 3d. Perhaps you should reexamine your response as well as my post, and then check out a basic reading comprehension course.

And you need to learn what certain gameplay elements do to the health of the game as a whole. Enjoy your PGI Kool-aid. Believe me when I say I think far more insulting things about you given your posting history.

Edited by valkyrie, 20 May 2013 - 08:27 AM.

[John MatriX82]

Stone Profit, on 20 May 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Hmmm. I regularly own 3ds in my muromets. Guess im just good at the game. Its called learn to flank.

I'm happy for you, at the levels I have to play there's virtually no flanking option and a non-jumping thing that's smaller than a stalker it's dead in no time.. and even going around with an Atlas, it's usually like running around in a big metal coffin.

And btw, I'm also happy you've quoted the lesser interesting and relevant part of my whole post, twice perhaps.

[Chavette]

John MatriX82, on 20 May 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

.. and even going around with an Atlas, it's usually like running around in a big metal coffin.

Story of me trying the atlas, never understood it.

[Solomon Ward]

Target reticule shake while jumping is a good thing.

But if i get the "aiming is more difficult" - side of jumping
i also want the "harder to be hit" - side of jumping.

[tayhimself]

Stone Profit, on 20 May 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

So you assume im supporting poptarting (you need learn what metagame actually means) and are horribly wrong, and proceed to insult MY intelligence? The only thing I mentioned was my ability to succeed in a muromets against a 3d. Perhaps you should reexamine your response as well as my post, and then check out a basic reading comprehension course.

While valkyrie is being kind of blunt (or a **** based on how you look at it), he is right. I've been plopped in the middle of high Elo matches and trust me, no higher Elo 3D is letting your muromets waltz right in. They'll move to a terrain where they have an advantage (if their *** isn't already parked there) so that they can alpha strike you while largely avoiding your dps advantage.

That said, I'm opposed to this change as I think it really hurts the Heavy Metal. I wouldn't have bought it had I known that it (and the other highlanders) would get nerfed in 2 months. Pop tarting is a bit of a problem but RNG is not a good solution because now we will all be ridge humping in stalkers with arm mounted PPCs

Edited by tayhimself, 20 May 2013 - 09:03 AM.

[Cferre]

I want to know why jump jets do not generate any heat.
This and the shake would bring things closer to how it should be.

[Stone Profit]

valkyrie, on 20 May 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

And you need to learn what certain gameplay elements do to the health of the game as a whole. Enjoy your PGI Kool-aid. Believe me when I say I think far more insulting things about you given your posting history.

Glad to know im all up in your head. Gives me satisfaction to know I own your mind.

John MatriX82, on 20 May 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

I'm happy for you, at the levels I have to play there's virtually no flanking option and a non-jumping thing that's smaller than a stalker it's dead in no time.. and even going around with an Atlas, it's usually like running around in a big metal coffin.

And btw, I'm also happy you've quoted the lesser interesting and relevant part of my whole post, twice perhaps.

I quoted and responded to the only part of your post that wasnt qq over not being able to poptart.
I also responded to the only interesting part.

[Stone Profit]

tayhimself, on 20 May 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

While valkyrie is being kind of blunt (or a **** based on how you look at it), he is right. I've been plopped in the middle of high Elo matches and trust me, no higher Elo 3D is letting your muromets waltz right in. They'll move to a terrain where they have an advantage (if their *** isn't already parked there) so that they can alpha strike you while largely avoiding your dps advantage.

That said, I'm opposed to this change as I think it really hurts the Heavy Metal. I wouldn't have bought it had I known that it (and the other highlanders) would get nerfed in 2 months. Pop tarting is a bit of a problem but RNG is not a good solution because now we will all be ridge humping in stalkers with arm mounted PPCs

And poptarts have inflated elos that will come crashing down when they cant abuse that mechanic anymore. But since theyre mostly ***** players who cant win without abusing mechanics and will qq all ober the forums ill enjoy those whining threads too!

[Lugh]

Wintersdark, on 20 May 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

Oh, certainly.

PGI's Brian Buckton here pilots a mean ERPPC Spider (and has become my nemisis, always barely escaping my wrath). But my point is that I'd rather have ERPPC poptart Spiders than 3D's and Highlanders poptarting everywhere.

That Spider is (going to be) smacking people for 10 damage every 4+ seconds, and can be ripped apart with a tiny amount of firepower. The 3D's and Highlanders are one-shotting people with 35+pt strikes while sporting heavy/assault armor.

If you are getting one shot by 30-40pt alpha strikes you have far too little armor on your fragile hide.

That alpha should merely be exposing the core under the armor if you've done it right.

Cferre, on 20 May 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

I want to know why jump jets do not generate any heat.
This and the shake would bring things closer to how it should be.

You are absolutely wrong JJs generate ~ 9% heat on any use whatsoever. This is easily accounted for with Double HS.

Edited by Lugh, 20 May 2013 - 09:33 AM.

[Galenit]

Chavette, on 20 May 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

Going by the physics, if I equipped 1 JJ it should shake less, and I will also not shake while descending.

Thats true.

Edustaja, on 20 May 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

Vibration as a measure of amount of mass lifted has little to do with actual physics and everything do with game balance. Most vibrations can be dampened by sufficient engineering and it could be argued that the jump-capable mechs include such weapon mounts by default.

There are some ways to compensate it.

Look on the difference between fluid and solid rocket fuel. Its easier to compensate them for fluidfuel rockets.
They used a active system to compensate them in the Ares Rocket. They put in 16 moveable weights, the system was around 650kg for the first part (it has 5 parts of i remember reight) of the rocket and brought the vibrations down to a level where the astronauts can view the instruments. The passive system was not bad too, but the astronauts were not able to read the instruments.

According to the targetcomputer in a mech, its losttech what we are talking about .....

A curve of shake that increases with every jumpjet seems a easy way to implement it.
It should start with a lot on your lift off, then reduce to lesser degree and after turning the jjs of reduce to zero over a very short amount of time. But predictable is not matching, vibrations behave strange in most cases ...

Hope that the "selbstsichernde Mutter" (dont find a translation for it, it means a selfsecuring female screw) is no losttech or your mech will fall to parts after some jumps ....

Edited by Galenit, 20 May 2013 - 09:35 AM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Vassago Rain, on 20 May 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

I don't see any of the actually good players using anything except ridging and tarting. Are you sure you know any good players? Because I know I do.

Poptarting's bad. You know why it's bad. Stop pretending otherwise. I know you're really salty MWO isn't quite turning out the way you'd want it to - that is, MW4 with HD graphics, jumping mechs all day, every day.

Long and short range warfare will both come back when you can't get your AWPs into the air.

I know good players, many of them, poptarting is not bad is a style of gameplay, what is bad is the knife fighting contingent that can't adapt to having to actually use some brain power to get to their target.

Long range play won't come back post shake, because the maps are far too cluttered with junk to actually make it useful.

Ie: they won't dish out enough damage to justify taking them, before some D-DC and A1 have crossed the open ground to come eat you, thus taking the short range weapons becomes the automatic choice because you know this is how it will end up.

Jump Jets allow range weapons to function and actually dish out justifiable damage, a poptarding team is not the be all end all.

Stone Profit, on 20 May 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

And poptarts have inflated elos that will come crashing down when they cant abuse that mechanic anymore. But since theyre mostly ***** players who cant win without abusing mechanics and will qq all ober the forums ill enjoy those whining threads too!

Nah the terrible players will just switch to SSRM A1's and Atlas D-DC again, and keep their elo scores.

[hammerreborn]

Cferre, on 20 May 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

I want to know why jump jets do not generate any heat.
This and the shake would bring things closer to how it should be.

THEY DO. Have any of you people played this game?

Edited by hammerreborn, 20 May 2013 - 09:40 AM.