33 replies to this topic

[Zyllos]

Look, boating is not the issue, but the symptom of the problem, pin point convergence.

If all those weapons did not hit a single point on a mech, then there is no difference between boating and balanced builds.

There is also other problems that is pushing the issue forward, like too lenient hardpoint restrictions and heat dissipation/capacity.

[1453 R]

Except pinpoint convergence has been a thing in every single previous MechWarrior game to date without being an unmanageable problem. Ballistics solve their own boating problems by being heavy as sin with ammunition taken into account (aside from LRMs, which only tend to get ridiculous on Stalkers currently), while energy alpha-bloating used to solve itself with severe, life-threatening heat issues. Except...not so much anymore. Because somehow four medium lasers are a greater strain on a BattleMech's heat dissipation systems than two PPCs, and that makes no ******* sense.

[MasterBLB]

Boating,even many PPCs,is not broken.The heat system without penalties for overheating is.
More here

[Hotthedd]

1453 R, on 20 May 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

Except pinpoint convergence has been a thing in every single previous MechWarrior game to date without being an unmanageable problem. Ballistics solve their own boating problems by being heavy as sin with ammunition taken into account (aside from LRMs, which only tend to get ridiculous on Stalkers currently), while energy alpha-bloating used to solve itself with severe, life-threatening heat issues. Except...not so much anymore. Because somehow four medium lasers are a greater strain on a BattleMech's heat dissipation systems than two PPCs, and that makes no ******* sense.

Actually not quite. The pvp versions of MechWarrior either solved the convergence issue or died a quick death. If you are talking about the single-player games, of course pinpoint convergence wasn't an issue. Who was going to complain? The AI?

[Roland]

Quote

The pvp versions of MechWarrior either solved the convergence issue or died a quick death.

What are you talking about?
None of the previous mechwarrior titles did anything to prevent perfect convergence.

MW4, for instance, was dominated by mechs that mounted a ton of ERLL's, and dealt all that damage instantly to a single panel.

[1453 R]

Which is pretty much exactly the point.

MWO is almost there. Large-bore ballistics are too heavy/bulky to be mounted in serious bloating numbers, small-bore ballistics don't do enough instantaneous damage to really cause alpha problems, lasers' damage-over-time beam duration mechanics in this game keeps them under control while also rewarding more skilled, careful aim, and missiles have been hammered straight into the mud. And can't deal precise, pinpoint damage anyways.

The only problem weapon left is PPCs. Adjusting the heat system to be harsher to PPC abuse could very well solve the convergence issues without having to eliminate weapon convergence and open up an entire new kettle of fish. Adjusting the heat system for lower tolerance/higher dissipation and fixing PPCs up to a different heat standard could very well do the trick, insofar as bloating goes. Doesn't really do a damn thing for poptarts, but those are their own problem.

Really...nobody has a problem with laser commanders in this game. It's the godforsaken PPC bloaters who're causing all the sniping problems. Fix missiles properly, cut back on the ability to mount ludicrous numbers of PPCs with minimal drawbacks, and we be good.

Edited by 1453 R, 20 May 2013 - 12:05 PM.

[verybad]

Boating is fine unless it makes it too difficult to succeed using non-boating builds.

It doesn't take a lot of skill to use a boat in generally. That doesn't mean that there aren't skillful people using boats, but they're certainly not skill requiring.

[Hotthedd]

Roland, on 20 May 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

What are you talking about?
None of the previous mechwarrior titles did anything to prevent perfect convergence.

MW4, for instance, was dominated by mechs that mounted a ton of ERLL's, and dealt all that damage instantly to a single panel.

...and how successful was the PvP MechWarrior 4? Be honest now.

[Ryllen Kriel]

MasterBLB and 1453 R, I like your ideas. It would be nice if there was more of a penalty for going over 100% heat for a shutdown. Heat management has always been a part of Battletech, and right now it's definitely on easy-mode in my opinion. I'd love to see internal damage based on percentage overheating upon mech reboot. That would be great and would actually begin to police energy based boat meta-builds.

Edited by Ryllen Kriel, 21 May 2013 - 01:41 AM.

[Leartes]

Mister Blastman, on 20 May 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

The reason you see sub-100s and 200s is there are players that are just... that... bad.

Maybe they gimp themselves by using a joystick... or playing with their pinky finger... or doing something insane like trying to play Mechwarrior with a Toddler in their lap and a newborn in their arm while trying to feed it with a bottle tucked under their chin. I don't know man.

Yesterday on forest colony. I was a hbk-4g starting at the top of the map. As soon as my mech starts up I move towards the cap point in the water. I step into the water, receive an alpha across the map and my hunch is gone. I mean, nice shooting bro, but seriously what does it good for the game that you can fish for these super high impact shots with no penalty?

I'm no expert, but I'd like to see mechs overheat quicker. Raining hell is fun but even in brawling people should overheat more imo.

[Bloody Moon]

Zerberus, on 20 May 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

Long story short: People whine about whatever kills them regularly instead of even considering thow their own playstyle might be part of the problem. They often just want it changed so they can walk aroung picking daisies with impunity instead of thinking tactically.

From Rambos geting HSed with the AWP in CS, to the railgun and BFG in Quake, thorugh the classic "Rogues are OP! No they aren`t, Frost Mages are" WoW circlejerk, to the one after the other nerfs of weapons (often justified) and now "boating" here.

People are no longer capable of accepting that EVERY weapon and tactic in a givel level of technology always has some form of viable counter at the same technological /tactical level or lower, and are usually just too lazy to search for it when whining about it is so much faster. That`s why in most of the whine threads people present rational, factual counterarguiments that the OP and /Or his supporters summarily dismiss as invalid, even at the cost of self contradiction.

For example:

A sniper can be discharged by a scout with a knife sneaking up behind him
He can in turn be torn up easily by lightly armed security forces that spot him from their position
They can get steamrolled by an Armored Personnel Carrier that happens to be flanking
Which will get shredded by a Tank that just came out of hidin in the garage
Which which will get blown up by an attack helicopter that popped up over the ridge
Which will get taken down by a fighter jet that was loitering at 25000 feet
Which is vulnerable to surface to air missiles hidden in the forest.
Which can be exposed and eliminated by a single Sapper burning the forest down.
Who can be nullified by the original Sniper simply shooting him from the mountaintop.

There is ALWAYS a viable counter, to everything. Actually finding it and using it is what separates the warriors and players from the cannon fodder and whiners

Quoted for the truth.

Minor balance changes are sometimes necessary, but the problem usually is with the players who are lazy to find the counter to a given weapon/tactic.

[Roadbuster]

This again? Really?

Ok. short answer...kinda.
Boating isn't the problem. The problem is the ability to instantly kill or cripple a mech by firing big alpha strikes with said boated weapons.
This might work in a TT game where you have the random factor of the dice, but in a FPS game like MWO without random factors it's just frustrating and has a negative effect on the gaming experience => bad game.

Even the odds, make more mechs and loadouts viable and improve the advantage of good piloting skill and good aim => good game.