43 replies to this topic

[Jaroth Corbett]

CTF GLOC, on 21 May 2013 - 01:41 AM, said:

So are we saying each Sibko has one gene mother OR one gene father who has donated their eggs or sperm, which in turn means the 100 or so Sibkin are all half brothers and half sisters. I’m still not entirely sure where the other half of the genetic material comes from, do they just have one huge repository of worth sperms and eggs that they pick at random fro mthe master list of all bloodnamed warriors to ensure at least a semblance of diversity?

If this is the case my original point has some validity because even if they aren’t brother and sister they are at least half bother and sister as is everyone in a Sibko, over time the genetics within a clan would really end up very diluted and the whole Eugenics idea would fall flat on its face.

From Sarna:

Sibko is a Clan compound word for "sibling company," the primary means by which Clan warriors are raised and trained. Sibkos are generally collections of trueborn children produced by the same geneparents and number upwards of one hundred children. Some Clans will stock an entire sibko from offspring of a prestigious Bloodname or from a particular Bloodheritage, though in many offspring of several different Bloodnames are common. Clan Wolf in particular is known for creating sibkos from a number of different Bloodnames and subcastes, and while such units tend to number only twenty, greater emphasis is placed on cooperation

Clan wolf’s way would at least give a broader genetic diversity.

Maybe I shouldn’t pick holes in the Battletech universe, there are way too many inconsistencies due to some authors being far poorer than others.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 21 May 2013 - 12:52 PM.

[Grey Archangel]

After reading almost everything pertaining to battletech and mechwarrior universe the thing is this. Sibko's are not always the same geneparents. When they start out they are BUT as infants and children there is a lot that fall out before they actually make it into a "Sibko". Also, all but the most odd and rare of birth defects, in fact ALL genetic defects, have been identified and removed. Then fact that Grayson Death dies of Cancer is such an odd thing and it doesn't happen in the clans at all.
The other thing about it is this. When they get to a Sibko they're injected, males and females, with a 5 year (I think 5) birth control. Diana Pryde was a product of two mechwarriors of the Pryde name it's true but Peri, her mom, flunked out of the mechwarrior training and became a Scientist. Any negitives found in her early pregnancy would have been removed before the baby came to term. The clan scientists are really well known in the popular fiction for messing around in the genetics and how to "improve" the race. The inner sphere doctors not so much. Comstar a little bit but their more along the lines of bio organic instead of the Genetics.
I don't know if that helps at all, hope so.
Grey

[Vanguard319]

Jaroth Winson, on 21 May 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

I was under the impression that a warrior from the first generation of a blood lineage could choose their bloodname from either geneparent, with subsequent generations being matrilineal only. For example, Aidan had a bloodname, but Peri (Diana's mother) did not. Diana could have been interpreted as the first generation of Aidan Pryde's lineage, therefore she was eligible for his name. As for the sibko mentioned in Falcon Rising, they were ALL created solely from Aidan's genes via parthenogenesis (essentially clones) Assuming any of them become warriors, and assuming any of them earn the right to compete for a bloodname, they would also compete for the Pryde bloodname, due to only having a single parent.

Edited by Vanguard319, 21 May 2013 - 05:57 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

No. Early on a warrior could go for either but it later became only on the gene-mother's side. Diana is a special case because she was the offspring of two trueborns conceived & born naturally.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 22 May 2013 - 03:47 AM.

[Skylarr]

Jaroth Winson, on 21 May 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

No. Early on a warrior could go for either but it later became only on the gene-mother's side. Diana is a special case because she was the offspring of two trueborns conceived & born naturally.

Quote

Diana Pryde
Following years of service to the Clan, Diana put forward a proposal to her Khan, Marthe Pryde, that would allow her to compete for a Bloodname. Basing her argument off the fact that she was the freeborn child of two trueborns, and ergo not genetically weaker than trueborns, she petitioned the Khan for the right to compete. The Khan agreed, and ordered Diana's commanding officer, Ravill Pryde, to sponsor her for the Trial. Ravill reluctantly complied, and the two of them, accompanied by Star Commander Joanna, journeyed back to the capital of Ironhold for the Trial.

Coinciding with this, Khan Marthe Pryde journeyed to Strana Mechty for a council of all Khans. The assembled Khans, led by the Khan of Clan Steel Viper, Perigard Zalman, demanded a censure of the Jade Falcons for allowing a freeborn to compete for a Bloodname. The motion falied by a close margin, due to the manipulation of Khan Vlad Ward of Clan Wolf, and Diana competed for a Bloodname.

Diana, facing opposition from many aspects of Jade Falcon society, still managed to win all of her Bloodtrials with ease, and claimed her Bloodname. This was interrupted, however, by Ravill Pryde's declaration of a Trial of Grievance to find the Bloodtrial null and void.

[Kenyon Burguess]

so the TLDR for IS pilots is: 1) all clanners are cross-bred from the original SLDF folks who fled, therefore all clanners are related to each other. 2) since most are disposable clones bred for purposes of war, no one cares if they cross breed on the sly as the child will be considered garbage and will disposed of or at least unable to join the society.

[Skylarr]

Well, this discussion was going well. Until.......

[CanAm]

The Westermarck effect is irrelevant. Clan warriors are emotionally distant and only express themselves in brief spurts of catharsis. Their rare sexcapades could easily fall under this cathartic relief.

[Parliment]

Still reminds me of high school .... yall bring in thu cuzins!!!!

[Asheron Storm]

CanAm, on 23 May 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

The Westermarck effect is irrelevant. Clan warriors are emotionally distant and only express themselves in brief spurts of catharsis. Their rare sexcapades could easily fall under this cathartic relief.

I thought the clans were Klingons, not Vulcans. (But my Pon Farr is rising!)

Honestly, I haven't read much Clan Literature, but if the Clans are supposed to be the ultimate warrior society, they wouldn't be against emotions in a Vulcan-esque manner. The best warriors in history have all been very emotional people, who were able to temper their emotion with Intellect. I think it was Robert E. Lee who said "A general must love his army, and be willing to order the death of that which he loves". If you ask most soldiers today why they fight, they will tell you they fight for the soldiers next to them. (After all, there is no logical reason that a person should knowingly risk death, so the reason must be emotional or spiritual.) For this reason, it makes perfect sense for the Clans to support "love" among it's warriors. As I've already mentioned, the Westermarck effect is taken care of by the social psychology of individuals whose society does see sex as a primary method of reproduction.

I could see that the Westermarck effect may also have to do with power. Put Simply, peers will not have sexual relations because sex is a form of showing dominance. People will mate with those who are lower status because they can. People will mate with those who are higher status in hopes of benefitting from their proximity to the higher status. Peers simply have no reason to mate. In this paradigm, the Westermarck effect may not show up in a Sibko because their is still a great deal of competition and power-playing within the Sibko.

[Karenai]

First of all, stop using a finnish 19th century philosophers ideas in every clan sibling love making thread. There is much evidence which speaks against his early years imprint theory. Some of it from the 21st century.
But if you want to go there, again. Going by the Jade Phoenix Trilogy they do it all the time, from a very young age. They do not experiment, they do it. Doing it solo is considered abnormal and any notion of it is a harsh insult. It is expected to have a partner for every night.

The whole cry about "but they mix the DNA! The reaping! The science cast!" blabla came with dark age. In a attempt to get rid of the sibling love making picture about the clans, the new writers tried to make everything "relative" and "not realy that bad". It is a very bad case of retcon.

PS. Most clanners are VERY hot headed. Vlad, Joanna, Natasha Kerensky, some whole clans, like the Fire Mandrills, the Smoke Jaguars, they all get bat s**t crazy because of the smallest things. Other Clans dislike the original Wolfs, because they are level headed. They think, make a plan and then attack. And even they almost annihilated the Widowmakers during the absorbtion trial, because of the death of Nicholas Kerensky.

Edited by Karenai, 24 May 2013 - 04:24 AM.

[xDAMAGEx]

Diana earned her bloodname because she was a child of the pryde line with both her mother and father being from the same sibko.

Ulitmately the invasion of the innersphere changed the way of the clans forever it might not have ever happened if the clans weren't in such a desperate state but war makes for strange bed fellows . It's an excellent book and definitely worth reading it's called "Falcon Rising"

Edited by xDAMAGEx, 26 May 2013 - 10:42 PM.

[Iron Savior]

Soy, on 20 May 2013 - 03:08 AM, said:

No wonder the Clans lost, bunch of friggin inbred backwater hilljacks. From Space.

Not only that, but you'd think a 'superior warrior bred race' wouldn't play at war like it were a game.

Also for a group of people who hate contractions, they sure did MAKE AN ENTIRE LANGUAGE OUT OF THEM.

[G-LOC]

Iron Savior, on 29 May 2013 - 03:12 AM, said:

Not only that, but you'd think a 'superior warrior bred race' wouldn't play at war like it were a game.

Also for a group of people who hate contractions, they sure did MAKE AN ENTIRE LANGUAGE OUT OF THEM.

I've always wondered about the whole contractions thing, I guess there have made a fine and fuzzy line between brevity and contractions but there are some condraditions in there.

The one thing that strikes me is that no one ever has anything to live for in the clans, they only have something to die for and as soon as you know you aren't getting a blood name you're screwed, there is literally nothing more for you than a regimented life and then firey death, it goes against the human condition, I'm supprised there aren't more revolts and philisophical musings on life death and ones purpose in the universe.

[Xeno Phalcon]

The clans have a starkly different social structure and idioms then what is common in reality or even by inner sphere standards. Most notably those held by trueborns (tankbred clanners) who are essentially designer humans, created in a lab using a combination of genes distilled from the original 800 bloodnames. They are grown, they are nursed and then they are trained under the harshest and quite frankly cruelest conditions imaginable where many die while the rest either are flushed out of training to a lower caste or become warriors.

Then they can expect a short life filled with harsh trials and a constant strife hoping to earn greater ranks and a coveted bloodname to ensure their own genes are deemed worthy to pass on to the next batch, knowing most clan mechwarriors are considered past their prime after the age of 26. After which if they do not have a bloodname their odds steadily decline until their best hope is to die in battle piloting a suicide mech or as cannon fodder for other forces.

Quite frankly the concept that one artificially crafted person grown in a tank could be considered related to another artificially crafted person grown in a tank and thus are participating in another cultures taboo by sleeping together is not even on the clans radar of **** they have to worry about.

[Damocles]

CTF GLOC, on 31 May 2013 - 03:57 AM, said:

The one thing that strikes me is that no one ever has anything to live for in the clans, they only have something to die for and as soon as you know you aren't getting a blood name you're screwed, there is literally nothing more for you than a regimented life and then firey death, it goes against the human condition, I'm supprised there aren't more revolts and philisophical musings on life death and ones purpose in the universe.

But you live for the Clan, the Clan gives you life and you give life back to it, it's Familial; not Governing or Corporate. It wouldn't go against the human condition to fight and die for your family, or to compete with them.

Although there are plenty of revolts and detractors, see: Dark Caste.

Edited by Damocles, 31 May 2013 - 07:23 AM.

[Ryvucz]

And the Sibko Rejects?

Something has not been perfected if those still happen.

[James Pryde IIC]

And this is the topic where it gets complicated, regarding my beloved Clan...

Look the the meaning of the word "Clan" (extended "family")

But still very independent genes, like it has been said, it is a mix

[xxREVxx]

Let the Inner Sphere *ahem* fans here have their fun polluting threads. Do not humor them by answering their taunts, loaded questions, or their twisted opinions. They are ridiculing a subject that most of them know nothing about and post quips looking for "likes" on their post instead of an intelligent conversation.
We will see soon enough in CW. Some think it will be a rerun of what little they have read on sarna. Some think clans will adhere to the rules clans are supposedly bound to. Some clans may, some will not. No Bidding, no Cutdown, no Zell.
For example, Zellbrigen is an antiquated term which Alpha Galaxy does not recognize.
Perhaps in CW there will be the ability to take their planets and leave the infrastructure intact...or not. As a Jaguar I prefer the later. Do not fight them fairly, cut them no breaks, leave nothing standing, and no survivors....

[Gaan Cathal]

PoisonWolf, on 14 June 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

Stuff

Mk. It gets a little weird when you're mixing the OC/IC there fella. You do know you're not actually a genetically engineered supersoldier, right?

CTF GLOC, on 21 May 2013 - 01:41 AM, said:

Maybe I shouldn’t pick holes in the Battletech universe, there are way too many inconsistencies due to some authors being far poorer than others.

Basically this, but if you're actually interested in the potential of a Clan eugenics project:

In reality there's a huge amount of genetic variation within groups that have one parent of the one gender and many of the other. Lion prides, for example, work like this. Inbreeding like you see in highly isolated rural families and european aristocracy is due to reintegrating a line back into itself repeatedly while intentionally excluding 'foreign' genes. In the one-generation lion pride style situation of a Sibko that just wouldn't happen. Never mind that if all the Sibkos are derived from original DNA (suggested so by the gene-repositories) then there's actually a major new source of genetic variation since time isn't a population limiting factor. That is to say, you could have a father who's still alive, and a mother who lived three generations ago.

Bluntly, being the child of half-siblings doesn't actually majorly predispose Diana Pryde to being a web-footed throwback. It's repeated inbreeding that provides the instabilities and recessive flaws that we associate with it. Plus she's a bit of a mary sue, so it barely matters.