25 replies to this topic

[Diablobo]

I truly sympathize with the devs and their truly difficult task. Not only are they bringing us a great game with what has to be very limited resources, they are having to deal with an angry group of players who constantly attack and complain about things THEY HAVEN'T EVEN DONE YET. Just look at the number of posts in the forums discussing things that haven't even happened yet. Yes, I get the whole enthusiasm being good for the game thing, but the ingratitude and hostility directed at the devs is completely out of line and it needs to stop.

I know I wouldn't want to be them, but I think I have a suggestion. Sure, we want feedback, but it seems like it would be better just to tell us as little as possible. Every single word that is said officially turns into an unofficial mess. The less they tell us, the less we have to complain about. Of course, this will lead to massive levels of grief about the lack of feedback, but it sure beats the constant harassment about things that they haven't even done yet.

I really like the game, faults and all, and I don't need to have Paul or Garth hold my hand and walk me through their thought processes. They are watching the forums, and they are analyzing the data, so quit complaining so much about them not responding to your asinine whining. Let them do their work. The forums should be dominated by congratulations and gratitude, not grief and negative speculation.

[Asmudius Heng]

Diablobo, on 19 May 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

The forums should be dominated by congratulations and gratitude, not grief and negative speculation.

You must be new to the internet.

Happy gamers are playiing the game not forum warrioring. Forums are always whine machines, but in between that stuff there are people who genuinly care about this game and feel they are beta testers and want to be a part of hopfuly making the game better.

Simply saying PGI are wonderful doesnt help just as much as screaming and ranting doesnt help.

[Ralgas]

The only part i don't get yet is why a recent spate of threads hasn't been redirected and locked yet, despite several replies from mods.

[Diablobo]

Yes, I suppose you're right about the forums being a cesspool of whine, but it seems to only make things worse when the devs do respond to even the valid suggestions and critiques. Just as I'm sure the good posts are heard by the devs, I am sure that they do more harm than good by getting very detailed about their plans and ideas. Seeing a dev response in a thread only ignites a storm of controversy where even the plainest of statements are misunderstood, distorted, and just plain lied about. It seems best just to stay out of it, because the cost in time they spend and bad PR they cause is way higher than the benefit they receive from being diligent responders.

I'm sure they have heard of the Pareto Principle where 20 percent of their customers account for 80 percent of their business. It seems it also applies to the forums. They don't need to cater to the 80 percent who are the casual or new player who causes grief and gripes about this and that, they only need to make the 20 core group happy. While the 20 who account for most of the business are going to be happy pretty much no matter what, it's the other 80 who are more responsible for the attraction or repulsion of new players. They risk their growth by fueling the 80 percent rage machine.

Edited by Diablobo, 19 May 2013 - 05:52 AM.

[Adridos]

Ralgas, on 19 May 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

The only part i don't get yet is why a recent spate of threads hasn't been redirected and locked yet, despite several replies from mods.

By locking threads left and right, no matter how justified and right that could seem to be, you're only going to fuel whiners' campaign/crusade/whatever.

[mack sabbath]

Here, like most every other game forum, has the vocal minority who cry the loudest, and anything the devs do, at any and all times, is worth whining about.

Yes the "beta" game has blemishes, some of them terribad and known to all for months, but the sky hasn't fallen, and the game is still fun more often than not.

[Ralgas]

Adridos, on 19 May 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

By locking threads left and right, no matter how justified and right that could seem to be, you're only going to fuel whiners' campaign/crusade/whatever.

Except that in this case it's leading to a forum riot over nothing and had argumentative/abusive context in the op

Edited by Ralgas, 19 May 2013 - 06:06 AM.

[buttmonkey]

its understandable people keep whining imo. one minute lrms are uber op then ppcs are uber op then srms are uber op, never a balance always a flavour of the month weapon.

then you get poptarts galore because of the stupid way JJs work, going up and down in a perfect vertical line with no shake or anything, physically impossible really.

then you have aimbots getting over 650damage in 1 match with 1 erppc, bugs galore. and top it all off CM has been pushed back to just a mater of weeks before launch making beta testing it almost impossible in the time before launch. then we get the news that the clans wont be coming until 2014 (well 2-3 quarters after launch).

then you have useless consumables such as artillery and airstrike, honestly i havnt seen one used in weeks.

then you have the absense of an in game team speak option in a game boasting its teamwork orientated gameplay. theres a lot more that im missing but you get the point.

i understand the devs have a lot on their plate but seriously 5 mill from founders packs alone not to mention the money they make off everything else since then. my question is how the hell are behind schedule at all.

to say its beta its beta means nothing really because pgi are making money off this "beta" game.
most games you buy dont make a penny until they are finished and sold so i wonder where all the money is going

[Odins Fist]

Diablobo, on 19 May 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

"I truly sympathize with the devs and their truly difficult task. Not only are they bringing us a great game with what has to be very limited resources, they are having to deal with an angry group of players who constantly attack and complain about things."

"PAYING" customers have every right to complain about the state of "ANY" product they have paid for, regardless of make believe labels applied to it, or as of yet to be released content.. End of Story..

Also, you got some brown there on your nose.

An infinished product brought to market is still just an unfinished product that has been brought to market.
It "HAS" been this way for some months now.

Edited by Odins Fist, 19 May 2013 - 09:39 AM.

[Taemien]

They don't have to be silent, they just have to silence those players. Its one thing to be critical of a new change, but those players like jeffsw6 are just trying to stir things up by making up problems that don't exist. I mean come on, complaining about needing 5 buttons on a mouse? 5 button mice cost less than the cheapest MC package. There's mechs in MWO that cost more than a 5 button mouse. Yet he's trying to stir everyone up about it for the 'casual gamer'. I'm a casual gamer. I have a 17 button mouse. In addition, keys can be remapped so you don't have to move your hand. MMO players have done this for the last 15 years.

But of course his intent was never about the subject, the intent was just to stir people up. He's a troll, nothing more.

Odins Fist, on 19 May 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

"PAYING" customers have every right to complain about the state of "ANY" product they have paid for, regardless of make believe labels applied to it, or as of yet to be released content.. End of Story..

Also, you got some brown there on your nose.

An infinished product brought to market is still just an unfinished product that has been brought to market.
It "HAS" been this way for some months now.

Paying customers have the right to use the proper channels. And they still have to be civil about it. The forums are like someone's house. If you bought something from me, had an issue with it, then came to my house and flung insults at me. I'd just shoot you in the *** and legs, then claim tresspass. Plain and simple.

But the internet affords you a level of protection not granted by going to a person's private home. This is why players use it in this way. There's no consequences for it. But that doesn't make it right. If you have an issue then do the proper and right thing and use their support email.

Balance changes have NOTHING to do with what you paid for. This is by YOUR OWN WORD. When you installed MWO you agreed that PGI would make any change to the game and you wouldn't hold them accountable as far as the product itself is concerned. This means for the purposes of transaction.

So you can't use the "I'm customer and I'm right, you can't make changes I don't like" argument. You waived that right by simply installing the game and playing it.

This doesn't mean you can't make suggestions or criticism, but you have no right to fling insults at people for designing their game. PGI has every right to boot you off their forums and even the game itself for it.

"Customer is always right."

When I worked in my previous jobs before the Army, it was always funny to hear that from disruptive customers... then I'd tell them to get the hell off the premises. And they'd leave. Especially when I told them they were now trespassing.

[Jestun]

Diablobo, on 19 May 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

I truly sympathize with the devs and their truly difficult task. Not only are they bringing us a great game with what has to be very limited resources, they are having to deal with an angry group of players who constantly attack and complain about things THEY HAVEN'T EVEN DONE YET. Just look at the number of posts in the forums discussing things that haven't even happened yet. Yes, I get the whole enthusiasm being good for the game thing, but the ingratitude and hostility directed at the devs is completely out of line and it needs to stop.

I know I wouldn't want to be them, but I think I have a suggestion. Sure, we want feedback, but it seems like it would be better just to tell us as little as possible. Every single word that is said officially turns into an unofficial mess. The less they tell us, the less we have to complain about. Of course, this will lead to massive levels of grief about the lack of feedback, but it sure beats the constant harassment about things that they haven't even done yet.

I really like the game, faults and all, and I don't need to have Paul or Garth hold my hand and walk me through their thought processes. They are watching the forums, and they are analyzing the data, so quit complaining so much about them not responding to your asinine whining. Let them do their work. The forums should be dominated by congratulations and gratitude, not grief and negative speculation.

Look at the discussion on things like 3rd person view or general discussion forums if you want to see what waiting until the decision has been finalized results in.

Edited by Jestun, 19 May 2013 - 11:28 AM.

[IceSerpent]

Diablobo, on 19 May 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

I truly sympathize with the devs and their truly difficult task. Not only are they bringing us a great game with what has to be very limited resources, they are having to deal with an angry group of players who constantly attack and complain about things THEY HAVEN'T EVEN DONE YET. Just look at the number of posts in the forums discussing things that haven't even happened yet. Yes, I get the whole enthusiasm being good for the game thing, but the ingratitude and hostility directed at the devs is completely out of line and it needs to stop.

Dude, design decisions have to be attacked BEFORE they are done - that's how you separate good ones from bad ones prior to spending time and effort on developing things that simply don't work.

[Monky]

If you let bad design decisions get into gameplay - that is something the company is now invested in as they have spent man hours and pay and equipment on that feature.

Telling people not to complain 'because it is beta' is like telling safety inspectors reviewing a new car not to complain about the lack of safety features because its not on the market yet.

[Livewyr]

Aww, dude.. I'm sorry, but you might wanna get a Fire Suit on...
I did that once..
Telling whiny children not to whine when you can't remove their fingers and vocal chords only results in them whining louder, and flaming you with it.

(I've learned to just have fun with the more obtuse ones.. and keep adding constructive things elsewhere.. for the sake of decency- whether PGI reads it or not.)

[Taemien]

Monky, on 19 May 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

If you let bad design decisions get into gameplay - that is something the company is now invested in as they have spent man hours and pay and equipment on that feature.

Telling people not to complain 'because it is beta' is like telling safety inspectors reviewing a new car not to complain about the lack of safety features because its not on the market yet.

There's a difference between saying,

"I think LRM damage is too low because they seem to under performing and are under represented in matches."

and this,

"PGI has no #$%#$%% idea what they are #$%# doing. They are #$%%$# that #$%#% the #$%#$%."

We're telling people not to do the latter and trying to encourage the former.

[karoushi]

What never ceases is the certainty of this situation of this thread:

1. People complain
2. Someone complains about the people complaining.

You are falling into category 2 with this thread, so it doesn't help either and is just as pointless as what you complain about.

The nice thing about a brain is you can ignore the use-less posts that provide no content and encourage the ones that do by rewarding the users that are TRYING to help and not just complaining like everyone else.

Edited by karoushi, 19 May 2013 - 02:43 PM.

[MasterBLB]

Well,I wish I could always be grateful for their awesome work,like fixing lag shield,HUD issues,memory leak and fps issues,planned UI2.0 and so on...Unfortunetly,they also make bad decisions which deserves to be criticised harshly like ECM implementation,messing override shutdown system,now increasing PPC cooldown and some kind of penalty for 'boating'.

But judging overall,they do definetly more good work than bad one.However,if they are going to screw something up they usually do that in a big way ;]

Edited by MasterBLB, 19 May 2013 - 02:45 PM.

[Diablobo]

I think you people misunderstand the whole point of this post. I could care less about what the idiots say and whatever speculative fantasies they care to engage in. I totally agree with providing constructive feedback, and sure, it's fun to troll the idiots. I am mainly addressing the devs and telling them to stop feeding the fire. They cause more problems than they solve when they respond so much it seems to me, and I was suggesting that they stop. I was hoping that someone might agree, and I think there will be some.

[Asmudius Heng]

The devs do not respond often outside of ask the devs posts because of the flames already. They are taking your advice and have been.

The issue is when they do choose to respond it is often not in a good place, or not with enough forethought. This leads to more flames - it is not that the devs should be quiet. It is the devs should be careful and thoughtful when interacting with the community. Flames will happen regardless if they talk or do not - it is all about HOW they interact that I see the issue with.

I have been saying for a year they need to seriously think about their entire communications and feedback strategy. They have improved actually on more formal communications, but have become worse on informal communications. They have left everyone wondering when it comes to feedback as this is the crux of what causes the angst

Do they take us seriously when it comes to feedback and ideas?

My opinion. No they do not and i am wasting my time here and that is a damned shame because there are some very good ideas from some very intelligent and thoughtful posters that should be listened to. I wont say who, but it is the lack of any sort of information about how useful our feedback is that generates the angst when people are so emotionally invested and want to help make a difference.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

I love this game's potential ... I want it to be great, but it is not there yet.

I think PGI (and to a lesser extent, IGP) is taking a huge risk rejuvenating the MechWarrior franchise, and so far, I'm generally happy with my purchase. My opinions:

• Do they have the balance right yet? No ... but most games go through balance issues throughout their life cycle.
  
• Are they moving fast enough to fix bugs? Probably ... based on the recent HUD bug CC post.
  
• Are they moving fast enough to release new content and tweak balance issues? Maybe ... I measure my stats in terms of weeks, so I can relate to the time it takes to record, measure, tweak, and internally test new stuff. I'd like to see things released more quickly, but I appreciate that they're trying to avoid doing too much too fast and letting the game spin out of their control.
  
• Are they as transparent / open with us as they should be? I don't think so ... I would like to have more details about the content and feature timelines leading up to release. I want to know what else they feel like they need to do before they can call the game "ready" for release. On the other hand, I like surprises (and the forum fire storms they cause -- I've got a bag of marshmallows ready for Community Warfare).
  
• Is it a complete game yet? No ... and it probably won't be until long after the clan invasions, if ever.

All that said, I enjoy the game now, and am excited about what it will be in the future, but they can do better to at least let us know what's going on behind the scenes.