31 replies to this topic

[Alpha Six]

I understand and applaud the concept of role warfare and the development team making mech classes other than assault viable, however I was wondering where in the roles medium and heavy mechs fit in.

Mediums and heavies as the "tweener" weight classes seem like they won't do quite as well as the other classes in a given specific role (i.e. a catapult won't be as good of a support missile boat as a longbow). Are the speed, maneuverability and firepower differences supposed to offset this distinction?

For example A centurion is slower and less maneuverable then a jenner, but is more heavily armed and armored. So I would imagine a jenner is better as a scout, however a centurion is far outclassed by assault mech's in armament and armor it does't seem to have a role as an brawler either. So what is the role for the centurion and other medium mechs (and heavies for that matter)?

[Kazzamo]

It depends. Mediums are were you see a lot of flexibility. Some have the armor to brawl with an Atlas like the Hunchback, some have speeds that beat light mechs like the Cicada.

[Roland]

Quote

i.e. a catapult won't be as good of a support missile boat as a longbow

I can put a catapult up on top of a plateu that can only be reached with JJ's and rain death down on you.

You can't do that with a longbow.

[Gun Bear]

Medium and heavy 'mechs are the most flexible ones especially with the addition of level 2 techs like Ferro Fibrous Armor and such. They may not do any one thing great but they do everything well... kind alike duct tape.

[Stimbles]

Mediums can fill a variety of roles while costing less to field and maintain than heavier 'mechs. Depending on the 'mech and configuration they can act as scouts, fire support, or skirmishers. It really depends on how the 'mech is designed. A medium could be meant to go fast and scout while having enough armour and weapons to hunt down light scouts or harrass heavier 'mechs; be slower but carry enough firepower and armour to stand up to a heavy or assault while having enough speed to get in close or out of an assault 'mechs way before they can react.

[ice trey]

You know, I think that's a bit of a poor generalization to classify 'mechs by weight classes and say that that's it's given role. There are actually a better set of classes presented in the Battletech Introductory box, which are based on the roles the 'mechs take.

These are:

• Scout (Speed above armor and firepower - they're only there to look and report back. Example: Cicada Even though it's a recon 'mech, the Raven is a bit too slow, well armed, and armored for this role. The Jenner can double in this role in a pinch)
  
• Striker (High speed and short ranged firepower, poor armor - for flanking or evading opponents and dish out large amounts of firepower on a target at close range. Examples: Jenner, Commando, Raven)
  
• Skirmisher (Uses high mobility and jack of all trade weapons to bring the fight to the enemy. Examples - none so far. See Hermes II, Grasshopper, Quickdraw)
  
• Brawler (Slightly less mobile than skirmishers, but make up for it with heavier armor and longer range. Example: Dragon)
  
• Missile Boats (Armed primarily with long ranged missiles. Can fire many volleys at great ranges. Example: Catapult)
  
• Snipers (Slow moving, armed with long-ranged weapons for attacking opponents at a distance. Examples: Centurion, Cataphract, Awesome)
  
• Juggernauts (Slow moving, Heavily armed and armored mechs meant to get up close and personal with their targets. Examples: Hunchback, Stalker, Atlas)

Edited by ice trey, 06 June 2012 - 07:51 PM.

[Furniture]

The Dragon can't be really called a Brawler. I think it's more of a skirmisher in our current lineup - long range weapons and the speed to keep its distance and harass, and weapons that are effective for every range, including indirect fire. The Hunchback is a Brawler - its faster than the slow assaults you put into the Juggernauts, and has less armor. It's a brawler because it has decent armor protection and the most powerful short ranged weapon to dish out the hurt once it gets into range.

[Xantars]

thats a fairly good assment Ice trey the tonnage of the make dosnet realy matter its how the mech is layed out for its role Assult mech are fine and dandy but they make lousy recon mechs unless your talking recon enforce were you go in find out whats their then stomp on it and make it go away

[Hypernaut]

You also have to consider the lore and plausibility besides the raw combat stats. Yes usually, assault mechs have the most fire power and armor BUT they are also most expensive both in maintenance and purchase. Then there are factors like having enough qualified pilots, availability of hardware and spare parts. Then there is the question of adequacy - for a small outpost assault mechs might be total overkill.

It's he same in RL - why don't all country use Leopard II and M1 Abrams tanks - they are the best tanks after all? E.g. T55 are much cheaper and often available for countries which can't get their hands on the premium stuff (even if they had the money) due to embargos or similar restrictions. And these tanks might be sufficient for the purpose in mind and on hand - as long as they dont have to fight against premium hardware in large numbers...

[Frostiken]

Quote

Where do Heavy and Medium Mech's fit?

Inside a very large garage.

[Forscythe]

Im guessing that when the game goes live they are not going to allow everyone to run around in just their assault mechs. I think a good long range support team up of 1 medium and 1 heavy could destroy an assault mech pretty effectively but a group of medium brawlers that close the distance could destroy the long range support pretty easily also or at least buy enough time for the assault pilot to gather his wits and close on the support team to destroy them. Who knows though Im guessing the majority of players will be running around with out rhyme or reason killing and being killed till game is over.

[Xinaoen]

It's true that a Medium will never be as fast as the fastest Lights, and that a Heavy will never be as well-armed or -armored as the tankiest Assaults. That doesn't mean that there's no point in piloting anything in between 20 and 100 tons, though. A Medium scout might be slower than a Light, but it can also pack enough armor and firepower to stand its ground in a firefight; it might actually be more effective at providing recon, since it doesn't have to turn tail at the first sign of danger. A Catapult doesn't carry as big a payload as an LRM-stacking Stalker could, but its mobility allows it to get to where it's needed much more quickly - and what good is your fire support when it's out of position?

The most effective 'Mech for a given role isn't necessarily the one that's the most heavily min-maxed.

[Alfred VonGunn]

Xinaoen, on 07 June 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

The most effective 'Mech for a given role isn't necessarily the one that's the most heavily min-maxed.

Thats just crazy talk. Haven't been reading these forums? No logic allowed:)

[GHQCommander]

A mech that does not apply to any, applies to all, no?

If a player opts to go Scout, they may want or a mission may be best scouted with a mech that is a little heavier due to increased threats. Maybe the scout plans to do a hit and run but on running needs enough armour to allow some hits in the back.

Scouting does not always mean under the rader. A scout may be used to create a distraction, bait, while they collect information and so on. They might need just a bit more armour while they bait and attract players too their position. Enemy gives chase of a mech quick enough and with enough armour to sustain some fire. Don't need to be too quick because friends are hiding and about to ambush the chasers.

That is just once scenario that may require a balanced mech, mainly because the scout does not clearly know exactly what will go down.

If your not thinking about playing like this, then you'll get a few surprised from me and my tactics

Edited by GHQCommander, 07 June 2012 - 02:12 AM.

[Fear Radick]

Alpha Six, on 06 June 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

I understand and applaud the concept of role warfare and the development team making mech classes other than assault viable, however I was wondering where in the roles medium and heavy mechs fit in.

Mediums and heavies as the "tweener" weight classes seem like they won't do quite as well as the other classes in a given specific role (i.e. a catapult won't be as good of a support missile boat as a longbow). Are the speed, maneuverability and firepower differences supposed to offset this distinction?

For example A centurion is slower and less maneuverable then a jenner, but is more heavily armed and armored. So I would imagine a jenner is better as a scout, however a centurion is far outclassed by assault mech's in armament and armor it does't seem to have a role as an brawler either. So what is the role for the centurion and other medium mechs (and heavies for that matter)?

It would come down to versatility. Mediums and heavys can fulfil multiple roles, while assaults and lights generally are more specific on what they can do. You will never see a light mech that's able to stand toe to toe with an assault, and you will never see an assault with the speed and maneuverability of a light mech.

[hermione]

well in the battle tech universe the medium mechs served as scouts like the cicada,p-hawk,assassin,clint,they also filled fire support roles like the griffin,dervish,worthless whit, then there was the brawlers and all around general support mechs like the shadow hawk,enforver,hatchet man, heavy mechs are much like that in how they are set up, the thing is the right mech for the mission, and how you use the mech, and what your role is in the lance

[MrPink6]

Who protects the Assault mechs from the long range sniper/support style mechs? The Scouts? no, the mediums and heavies that travel ahead, and give the Assualt Mech a chance to close in.
Who finds and spots the enemy? Scouts - that's easy. Who closes in and exploits the enemies weaknesses? Mediums and Heavies.
Assaults are great at fighting - ONCE THEY GET THERE. Long Range Snniper/Support mechs can just fire and kite, and the big Assaults will struggle to ever bring their arms to bare.

However, as ice trey suggests, it's mroe about the roll of the mech then the weight. But the point remains... Everything has it's place, provided of course, people fill the roles that suit their team.

[DerMaulwurf]

Large mechs combine acceptable speeds with good weapon loadouts. Mediums can have decent weapons at highish speeds.

Or in more detail: Heavies have enough speed to not be easily outmaneuvered (however not enough to outmaneuver the enemy), while retaining a good arsenal, especially compared to the faster assault mechs. Slow assault mechs (Atlas, Stalker) have an edge over them in terms of firepower, but it is not as substantial as the advantage of heavy mech weaponry compared to lighter designs, while that last cut to speed hurts quite a lot.

Mediums have the potential to carry enough weapons to be a credible threat and combine it with good speed. Unlike heavier mechs you are fast enough for flanking maneuvers, but unlike lights you present a credible threat (the Raven's 2ML and SRM6 is not a "large amount of firepower"). However this is limited to balanced designs. Slow mediums like the 3025 Centurion have just one thing going for them: they're cheap.

[veretax]

I've always ascribed a bit to looking at mechs, not by their tonnage, but by their movement profiles.

3/5 - Assault or Shock Troops - Essentially these bad boys you pick a target and march right in or hold the line
4/6 - Line - As in Mech of the line, Mostly heavies and mediums, some assaults, these mechs are the back bone of most regiments, and have a bit more capability in terms of speed than their slower and usually heavier cousins.
5/8 - Cavalry - Cav's are a fun roll to play especially in later eras they have a bit of speed, and can look at hitting the flanks of the enemy when they have the chance. They may have less armor or the XL engine weakness though, so they should never be pushed as hard the previous two categories. However, they can still put out in a fight, even in the era we are at in this game.
6/9 - Strike - Strikes are what I call the first class of raiders, screeners, etc. They are good to work on the flanks or out in front of an advance, and there are few rides that can keep up that they can't handle, and those they can't they can fall back to stronger lines. Strikes are definitely the first of the, Speed is like armor group of mechs.
7/11 - Pursuit or Skirmisher - where as the Skirmisher's described above, these mechs often are either good at range or up close, they can find the enemy, spar with them at range, and get out before taking too much, but shouldn't be getting too close too often. Sometimes I'll keep these mechs in reserve to give chase along with Strikes if the enemy starts to flee because of damage suffered.
8/12+ - Recon -Pretty much anything that moves this fast or faster is Recon. Often very light on armor, weaponry may be lacking, but these mechs can really ruin your day if you ignore them early in a fight.

Now, that's not to say that a Heavy Strike or Cavalry unit can't be used in another roll, with the advent of advanced electronics you have other options, but in general I tend to see these as these mechs primary roles. That isn't what always happens though.

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

While slow mediums (4/6) have a solid role to play in tabletop, FPS multiplayer mechwarrior games have always been a different beast. Very few players take these mechs in multiplayer matches.Unlike table top where you can trade two Centurions for an Atlas, you only get to pilot 1 mech. No matter how good of a pilot you are, if your Centurion moves the same speed as my Zeus, its going to lose almost every time.

Heavies at least offer a really nice balance of Speed and Armor. Not so slow to be pondering, but well armored.

My guess would be that Mediums im MWO have more module slots than heavy/assault mechs to incentivise players to take these mechs.