69 replies to this topic

[Zyllos]

This does seem like a good time to bring this back.

Still 100% aboard this idea. I think this would be a great equalizer to LRMs overall. There should not be a damage power difference between launcher sizes.

Instead, launcher sizes should provide efficiency in tonnage, heat per launcher, and overall RoF (multiple small launchers is 100% better than 1 launcher of the same size) but multiple small launchers is bad against AMS, due to small LRM swarm sizes.

But all launchers should seek a random location in groups of 5 LRMs each, and their spread targeting that location is based on LoS/non-LoS, TAG, NARC, and Artemis.

There should be no functional difference in how well the LRM/5 aims when compared with the LRM/20. All launchers will fire in groups of 5 LRMs, each swarm targeting a random location. Since all launchers fires in groups of 5, their spread size will be the same, no matter which launcher it comes from. Just the larger launchers will send their swarms in larger waves (depending on tube sizes), thus making them more effective against AMS.

Edited by Zyllos, 22 July 2013 - 08:05 PM.

[Tice Daurus]

This idea has already mentioned a couple of times already in the past week or so to have LRM's go to a 'bones system' similar to Streak SRMs. I would also agree with this but if you do have LRMS + Artemis + TAG, it should do the same type of damage it's doing now which most of if not all of the missiles go to CT or particular location to all left torso or all right torso depending on which angle you are facing when you are hit. That's what TAG + Artemis is SUPPOSED to do with LRM's when you combine them together. Or NARC + Artemis.

A 'bones' systems would be a good idea to set up for people using regular LRM's.

[Kaldor]

I can get behind the bones option for LRMs. The modifier to increase weighting to CT can be Artemis NARC and TAG instead of just tightening the pattern on each bone as you suggested.

This is the base SSRM damage weighting

LA 15
RA 15
LL 15
RL 15
LT 12
RT 12
CT 16

I can see this working for LRMs with no extra effects on them such as Artemis, NARC or TAG.

Under the effect of 1 of the 3 the weighting would shift to:

LA 12
RA 12
LL 12
RL 12
LT 15
RT 15
CT 22

Under the effect of 2 of the 3 the weighting would shift to:

LA 10
RA 10
LL 10
RL 10
LT 17
RT 17
CT 26

Under the effect of 3 of the 3 the weighting would shift to:

LA 8
RA 8
LL 8
RL 8
LT 19
RT 19
CT 30

Obviously these tables would need adjustments similar to what SSRMs get when targeting mechs with missing limbs. The chances of being under the effect of all 3 at the same time are pretty slim, but would allow people that buy into the concept of a "team weapon" a chance to really have some good damage. Besides, how many people do you know that carry both NARC and TAG?

The other change I would put up is weighting the launchers differently. The above table could applied to an LRM20. As the launchers get smaller, they could see a small change in weighting to allow the LRM5s to use a weighting that allows them to hit CT more easily. If all the weightings are the same, there is no reason to take anything other than a 15 or 20.

Running with this, I would like to see NARC fixed up a bit. TAG is better is pretty much every single way. Double the ammo per ton to 25 shots. Set the time the beacon is active for 30 seconds. Make it a true fire and forget option so the shooter doesnt need to maintain LOS of NARC'ed target for it to function.

The only other thing Id like to see for LRMs is a reduction on attack angle. They are defeating cover far too easily.

The last issue is getting stuck in the open on a pebble, but thats hardly an LRM problem...

El Bandito, on 24 May 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

I'm ok with this idea but PGI better buff SSRM damage to compensate for this.

Yeah, how about not. SSRMs are a skill less weapon. Even less skill required than LRMs. Easymode is bad.

[Dracol]

I'd be cool with this idea only if LRM launchers weighted 1.5tons like SSRMS. To get the tight CT group, there is a large investment in tons and crit spaces.

SSRMS needed the spread mechanic IMHO because of two issues
1. Light weight weapon that tracks was OP when it hit only CT
2. Close range weapon was unavoidable

LRMS do not suffer from those two unbalancing issues.

[Skyfaller]

Problems with OP's suggestion:

1- Artemis becomes useless.
2- TAG becomes useless.
3- LRM becomes ineffective and abandoned as a weapon system altogether.

If there are 7 hit locations and LRMs now do 1.1 dmg per missile that means that in this new system the splash damage would not overlap. This means even an LRM15 would be hitting with 2 missiles per section at best for 2.2 damage.

four LRM15s (a fully dedicated LRM boat) would be landing 8.8 damage per section on a full salvo. This is wasting half a ton of ammo per salvo. Simply put, it is not feasible to run an LRM boat or even use LRMs as a long range support weapon (aka not boating them).

If the LRM damage is increased then you'd be back to the same whining problem: im getting hit by LRMs /cry /cry nerf them. Only this time its not because of the CT coring but because a mech's limbs and side torsi would dissolve in two salvo hits.


How about a more effective and realistically possible approach?

1- Remove artemis spread narrowing effect.
2- Artemis effect: Increases dive angle of missiles. Non-artemis = 30 degrees, artemis = 60 degrees.
3- Remove TAG spread narrowing effect.
4- TAG effect: Armor location where the TAG beam is shining becomes the LRM's 'center point' for impact. ****
5- Remove NARC damage threshold. NARC should be active for entire duration of its timer.
6- Remove Missile Warning message. Missile Warning Message only available if mech has AMS system installed.
7- Increase LRM ammo by 25% per ton.
8. Reduce LRM damage to 1.0
9. Increase LRM range to 1.5km
10. Change missile behavior to home in on target that is locked. This means if LRMs are dumbfired and you acquire lock afterwards they will switch to homing in mid-air. If you change targets they will fly to the new target.

What this does:

Currently the non-artemis missile impact spread is the closest to what you want to do by applying the SSRM changes to it. Literally the non-artemis spread hits the arms and legs as well...and causes many missiles to hit since its so wide. By making ALL missiles land in this same spread we remove the high-incidence of CT coring we see with the current artemis equipped mechs.

Changing the artemis to a dive angle bonus does increase its hit % which is what the upgrade is supposed to do.

TAG change is significant. By changing the center aimpoint the TAG allows the LRMs to focus more on certain parts of the mech. Say, legs for example. Shining TAG on a weakened side torso has a higher chance of more missiles landing on it than on the CT as it normally would. Lots of tricks can happen from this new TAG.

Damage, ammo, range and lock behavior changes are all set to keep the LRM competitive to PPCs and ballistics. Currently the shorter max range they have compared to those weapons is making them a poor choice as a long range weapon...which is silly. Do not that even with 1.5km range the missiles now have to be kept locked for much longer if they want to hit. This also makes scouting for LRM mechs an important feature of combat.

Missile Warning should only be available if the player invests in the anti-missile system. Currently the warning is 10 times more effective than the actual AMS interception rate. This one is a no-brainer and I'm surprised why it has not been done already.

[Tice Daurus]

Skyfaller, on 23 July 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

blah blah blah long stuff

Ok I read it, but apparently you don't understand that Artemis is supposed to put all of the missiles into one particular area.

[Iron War]

i would agree with this only if missiles would hit 100% like SSRM. If u move 90 degrees to the launching mech 50% - 75% of the missiles miss. even with assault mechs moving at 60 kph most missiles will miss or at most hit your arms. Attack them like u would a PPC biuld. use cover to get close and with in 180m and unlike PPC LRMs r useless within min range. like PPCs they r most dangerous to mechs not moving, not using cover, and at ranges between 200m - 400m (any closer and the users get nervous they will be within min). AMS is a must if u r worried about missiles. i carry it on all my mechs. Those that cry about LRMs dont know how to attack them.

For a weapon that first needs to be locked on(or no CT shot) has a warning of incoming and time to evade not to mention AMFckenS . . . u guys are a bunch of . . .

[Warge]

LRMs should become unguided missiles. And strike similar to Air/Artilery Strike.

[Urdnot Mau]

So, 60 missiles all hit CT = good
4 missiles hit CT = bad
4 missiles randomly hit every part of a mech = good

way to go !
but.. i don't understand.

[blinkin]

LRM need to roll the bones!

[Joachim Viltry]

I like it. As presented, it would not only mitigate the issue that LRMs have had from day 1, but also mimic TT damage characteristics.

[Renthrak]

Skyfaller, on 23 July 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

If there are 7 hit locations and LRMs now do 1.1 dmg per missile that means that in this new system the splash damage would not overlap. This means even an LRM15 would be hitting with 2 missiles per section at best for 2.2 damage.

You missed the last bit: grouping 5 missiles per hit location. So an LRM15 could hit 1 location for 16.5 damage (all three groups roll the same hit location), or 1 location for 11 and one location for 5.5. (Two groups roll the same location, one group rolls different), or 3 locations for 5.5 damage each (each group rolls a different location). So, best case scenario, your LRM15 hits harder than a Gauss Rifle, and worst case, it hits like a UAC/5.

This means that firing 1 LRM15 or 3 LRM5s would have exactly the same effect.

Urdnot Mau, on 23 July 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

So, 60 missiles all hit CT = good
4 missiles hit CT = bad
4 missiles randomly hit every part of a mech = good

Not quite.
60 missiles all hit CT = very bad
4 missiles hit CT = waste of tonnage
Missiles hit random locations in groups of 5 = good

It would remain possible for all 60 missiles to hit the CT, but only if all 12 groups rolled to hit the CT, which is very unlikely. The only way fewer than 5 missiles would hit a single location is if some are intercepted by AMS, but that would usually only reduce damage to a single hit location.

With 1.1 damage per missile, this system would make an LRM launcher equivalent to one AC/5 for every 5 missiles. One LRM5 would hit like an AC/5, with a considerable weight savings, in exchange for a slower rate of fire and the need for a missile lock. An LRM20 would hit like 4 chainfired AC/5 shots.

[Urdnot Mau]

Renthrak, on 23 July 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

Not quite.
60 missiles all hit CT = very bad
4 missiles hit CT = waste of tonnage
Missiles hit random locations in groups of 5 = good

It would remain possible for all 60 missiles to hit the CT, but only if all 12 groups rolled to hit the CT, which is very unlikely. The only way fewer than 5 missiles would hit a single location is if some are intercepted by AMS, but that would usually only reduce damage to a single hit location.

With 1.1 damage per missile, this system would make an LRM launcher equivalent to one AC/5 for every 5 missiles. One LRM5 would hit like an AC/5, with a considerable weight savings, in exchange for a slower rate of fire and the need for a missile lock. An LRM20 would hit like 4 chainfired AC/5 shots.

I was actually being sarcastic. I don't get why people still think that the actual LRM damage is fine and should not be changed. Actually, i think that PGI should've done it a long long time ago. But, as always, it usually takes half a year to implement a fix/balance to a serious problem.
SSRM pattern is fine, but now the damage is underwhelming

Edited by Urdnot Mau, 23 July 2013 - 06:12 PM.

[Renthrak]

Urdnot Mau, on 23 July 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

SSRM pattern is fine, but now the damage is underwhelming

LRMs seem effective enough when they're shredding the center torso, though damage to other locations seems less severe. I would want to see how well it works when it's hitting locations in groups of 5 before committing to a damage increase. In any case, I wouldn't want to see per-missile damage go higher than 1.5.

What I really want to see with LRMs is for the smaller launchers to actually be worth taking. So many 'Mechs have an LRM10 stock, so making that focus the damage in only 1 or 2 locations should put it on nearly equal footing with Autocannons and Medium Lasers for utility.

[blinkin]

i had missed the part where you suggest that missiles operate in groups of 5 before. i really like that part, although it would get a little weird with my LRM hunchback 4SP since it fires in volleys of 6. would that then operate as a group of 5 and then a single missile that just does it's own thing?

i think treating them as groups of five would do a decent job of punching through armor where they hit while also reducing the required effort on the part of the server.

[Tolkien]

I abstained but do like parts of the idea, since I think this game needs randomized hit locations for all weapons and not just missiles. Before anyone gets too angry at the thought run a dragon, a hunchback, or a catapult for a while and you'll notice that certain torsos are almost always the first to go due to the artwork.

If this missile spreading/targeting is implemented though I would hope that the LRM flight paths will be improved again. I say this as both a user and a target of LRMs, as the locks are still fast to break via terrain, and if the target is paying attention they can still spin their body to spread the damage.

[El Bandito]

Kaldor, on 23 July 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

Yeah, how about not. SSRMs are a skill less weapon. Even less skill required than LRMs. Easymode is bad.

As opposed to simply point and click? Shooting direct fire weapons in MWO is way easier than other shooters and is completely non-BT, because there is no convergence--you can nail any target while running at full speed or at high heat.
You can't reduce PPC damage with AMS or ECM, not to mention Streaks have 270 range.

Besides, current Streak is garbage that no even Lights want to carry. I totally called it.

Edited by El Bandito, 24 July 2013 - 05:23 AM.

[Kaldor]

El Bandito, on 24 July 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

As opposed to simply point and click? Shooting direct fire weapons in MWO is way easier than other shooters and is completely non-BT, because there is no convergence--you can nail any target while running at full speed or at high heat.
You can't reduce PPC damage with AMS or ECM, not to mention Streaks have 270 range.

Besides, current Streak is garbage that no even Lights want to carry. I totally called it.

Slightly more difficult to lead targets with ballistic style weapons at 500m than it is to get a lock and shoot at 270m and below with SSRMs which are a guaranteed hit unless they hit terrain or the target is moving very fast at a hard angle to you. Why should an SSRM2, be anymore effective than an SRM2 which actually takes some semblance of skill to use?

Dont kid yourself.

Ill say it again, easymode is bad.

[Aym]

Renthrak, on 24 May 2013 - 11:26 PM, said:

I'm starting to think that the only reason SRMs were effective before was the screwed up splash damage. It's like shooting paintballs at this point.

I like shooting paintballs. In fact many weeks I spend more time shooting paintballs than PPC's and all other mech based weapons combined.

[El Bandito]

Kaldor, on 24 July 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

Slightly more difficult to lead targets with ballistic style weapons at 500m than it is to get a lock and shoot at 270m and below with SSRMs which are a guaranteed hit unless they hit terrain or the target is moving very fast at a hard angle to you. Why should an SSRM2, be anymore effective than an SRM2 which actually takes some semblance of skill to use? Dont kid yourself. Ill say it again, easymode is bad.

How the hell is it easy-mode when your missiles are not even going to hit to part you targeted? Did you even try out the SSRMs post nerf?

Wow, a Jager with exposed side torso, too bad your SSRMs are only aiming at his arms and legs. Uncontrollable RNG is totally cool!

People like you made PGI destroy yet another weapon.

Edited by El Bandito, 24 July 2013 - 05:44 AM.