83 replies to this topic

[Ralgas]

The issue as i see is it combats ambush tactics (probably a response to the rabble rabble over ac/40's/streakcats/return of the a1)

The issue there is lights and scouts got thrown on the fire as they cant just sneak in for hit and fade or tag/narc anymore unless they wait for other distractions, I've known good jenner pilots that have hit me 3 times before i even pinpointed where the frack it was coming from before this dropped. It also greatly reduces the chance of anyone sneaking around for caps unless on the larger maps (like the tactic or not) due to the range it covers.

Maxx's point is a little misguided, but he has a point. You no longer have to expose yourself in the tunnel on frozen city to check it, and if you really wanted to you could take up an ambush spot on the side of the entrance and simply blast as they exit.

Oh and for those wondering you can't target or get a facing, you get a pulsing dot on the minimap

[IceSerpent]

Ralgas, on 23 May 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

The issue as i see is it combats ambush tactics (probably a response to the rabble rabble over ac/40's/streakcats/return of the a1)

I think it's more effective against a D-DC rush - streak cat would cover those 130m between 400m sesmic sensor range and 270m streak srm range fairly quickly.

Quote

Maxx's point is a little misguided, but he has a point. You no longer have to expose yourself in the tunnel on frozen city to check it, and if you really wanted to you could take up an ambush spot on the side of the entrance and simply blast as they exit.

Except those folks in the tunnel will detect you setting up an ambush and ain't gonna exit even if you promise them free beer

[Ralgas]

IceSerpent, on 23 May 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

I think it's more effective against a D-DC rush - streak cat would cover those 130m between 400m sesmic sensor range and 270m streak srm range fairly quickly.



Except those folks in the tunnel will detect you setting up an ambush and ain't gonna exit even if you promise them free beer

A) thats the point though, you still see em coming and generally will be able to act defensively, which is something these builds dont handle terribly well

in an assault maybe, i,d have to test but i'd bet anything moving 75km/h + could be setup before a jenner or spider could detect them if it was planned move.

[GumbyC2C]

perhaps range of detection based on some sort of tonnage/speed of the target math would be better. Something simple like detection range = tonnage x 4 so that an Atlas would be detected further out than a Spider. I know that if I stand still, I can hear the Atlas much sooner than the Spider.

[Sephlock]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 22 May 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:

I've been using it all day. The thing is great, but it's just so much better than every module.

So, how long before it gets the nerfbat? And how do you think it'll be nerfed?

How about we make the other modules suck a bit less instead?

[stjobe]

The biggest issue I have with the Seismic Sensor is that it removes the need for the player to develop battlefield awareness to become good - the module provides perfect battlefield awareness with no skill involved.

In short, it makes the game dumber.

Of course, it's also a(nother) smack in the face to us light pilots; both the UAV and SS in one patch? Someone at PGI must really not like light 'mechs...

[MustrumRidcully]

stjobe, on 24 May 2013 - 01:42 AM, said:

The biggest issue I have with the Seismic Sensor is that it removes the need for the player to develop battlefield awareness to become good - the module provides perfect battlefield awareness with no skill involved.

In short, it makes the game dumber.

Of course, it's also a(nother) smack in the face to us light pilots; both the UAV and SS in one patch? Someone at PGI must really not like light 'mechs...

They have been OP for too long! Lights in Battletech were always weak and unlikely to beat larger mechs. That's how it should be.

Except...

The old [TOPIC] Warfare blog promised something else, didn't they? I'd still pay a Founder's thingy for that game.

I guess we really played this game for too long without HSR to be able to still completely ascertain the value of lights. But it certainly dropped without lag shield protection, and while lag shields suck... It just shows how much still needs to be done.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 24 May 2013 - 02:38 AM.

[Budor]

Its retardedly op and now that LRMs be will toned down I hope more people will concentrate their and the devs attention on it.

Edited by Budor, 24 May 2013 - 02:48 AM.

[Roadbuster]

No time to check seismic sensor contacts, too busy trying to evade LRM rain and PPC/Gauss crossfire from 400m+ range while getting cored by SSRM spamming scouts.

Give it some time.
Even though ECM is still called overpowered and LRMs are broken atm, I have many matches without any ECM mech at all.

[FupDup]

MustrumRidcully, on 24 May 2013 - 02:36 AM, said:

They have been OP for too long! Lights in Battletech were always weak and unlikely to beat larger mechs. That's how it should be.

Except...

The old [TOPIC] Warfare blog promised something else, didn't they? I'd still pay a Founder's thingy for that game.

I guess we really played this game for too long without HSR to be able to still completely ascertain the value of lights. But it certainly dropped without lag shield protection, and while lag shields suck... It just shows how much still needs to be done.

Yup, the mech class that only made up around 11% of the game's population before ballistic HSR and the non-premium Highlanders was most definitely OP. Sounds legit.


Something a lot of people don't remember is that BT had Battle Value to keep assault mech spam in check. For every Atlas you took, I could take 3.5 Commandos. In MWO, each mech takes up a single player slot and you can't exceed 8 players (or 12 when that gets added later). Therefore, it is good judgement to fill that slot with the best mech you can. Lights (and mediums) were also pretty common due to cheap construction and repair costs, whereas heavies were uncommon and assaults were damn rare.

In MWO, assaults are basically standard infantry. I get more scared of lights than I do assaults most of the time because light pilots at higher levels of the game tend to be pretty damn good at what they do. Isn't that a little bit backwards? Aren't assaults supposed to be the rare sight that make you soil your pants?

Edited by FupDup, 24 May 2013 - 07:15 AM.

[LordBraxton]

make it detect weapon fire only

Halo Combat Evolved Radar

has no place in MWO

[IceSerpent]

LordBraxton, on 24 May 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

make it detect weapon fire only

Wait...what? You want seismic sensor to detect lasers going off?

[Side Step]

stjobe, on 24 May 2013 - 01:42 AM, said:

The biggest issue I have with the Seismic Sensor is that it removes the need for the player to develop battlefield awareness to become good - the module provides perfect battlefield awareness with no skill involved.

In short, it makes the game dumber.

Of course, it's also a(nother) smack in the face to us light pilots; both the UAV and SS in one patch? Someone at PGI must really not like light 'mechs...

It diminishes the need for battlefield awareness at the cost of a module slot. If you don't have any awareness, it's of course amazing. It closes the gap to the big dogs. However, for those with good awareness already, it's not the best module ever, and they can choose another module, getting an edge that way.

Also, the more modules they release, the more difficult will it be to fit all the modules you now might take for granted. The fact that modules are good is not a bad thing. We should rather get more modules that are also very good which makes module choice a difficult one.

It can't be compared to ECM in my opinion for a few reasons.
ECM is mech specific. Seismic Sensor can be put on any mech.
ECM's cost is a mere 1.5 ton. Seismic Sensor has an opportunity costs of losing out on another module. (This cost will be nothing when you have less modules than slots, but will get higher the more modules are made available to you.)

The best way to balance Seismic Sensor, if it's deemed unbalanced, would in my opinion be to release more modules, and buff rarely used modules (PGI should have data on which).

Edited by Side Step, 24 May 2013 - 07:48 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

FupDup, on 24 May 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

Yup, the mech class that only made up around 11% of the game's population before ballistic HSR and the non-premium Highlanders was most definitely OP. Sounds legit.

I hope you didn't take that seriously.

Quote

Something a lot of people don't remember is that BT had Battle Value to keep assault mech spam in check. For every Atlas you took, I could take 3.5 Commandos. In MWO, each mech takes up a single player slot and you can't exceed 8 players (or 12 when that gets added later). Therefore, it is good judgement to fill that slot with the best mech you can. Lights (and mediums) were also pretty common due to cheap construction and repair costs, whereas heavies were uncommon and assaults were damn rare.

In MWO, assaults are basically standard infantry. I get more scared of lights than I do assaults most of the time because light pilots at higher levels of the game tend to be pretty damn good at what they do. Isn't that a little bit backwards? Aren't assaults supposed to be the rare sight that make you soil your pants?

I think all the ideas with tonnage matching and battle value matching forget one problem - population size. If more people have fun with Assaults than with, say, Lights or Mediums, then all of these methods will lead the match-maker to either create imbalanced matches, or people waiting longer for matches.

The developers really need to find a way to make sure A Light is as powerful and useful as a Medium, a Heavy or an Assault, and vice versa and interminxed and whatever. If then still only 11 % like the Light play style, so be it. But you won't get people to have fun in mechs they don't enjoy. You can only ensure that whatever mech type you choose, you can be a valuable asset and not dragged down by your mech choice.


---

Here's a crazy idea:

1. Hard Points
Existing hard points for variants will be changed, based on the following:
Light Mechs: All Light Mechs get an ECM hard point. Mechs that already have an ECM hardpoint get either an extra weapon hard point or a 25 % radius increase to the ECM effect.
Mediums: All Mediums variants can either get an ECM hard point or a Dual AMS hard point. Mechs that already have an ECM hardpoint get either an extra weapon hard point or a 25 % radius increase to the ECM effect.
Heavies: Heavy variants can get an ECM hard point only via sacrificing an AMS or weapon hard point (compared to the other chassis of the mech or the current variant, if an existing variant is changed)
Assaults: Assault variants can get ECM only via sacrificing an AMS and a weapon hard point, or 2 weapon hard points. (This could mean for the DDC that it loses a ballistic and a missile hard point.)

2. Module Options
The base number of module slots for mechs is dependent on weight. (You can still gain extra modules for mastering a chassis.)
20-25 Tons: 9 Modules
30-35 Tons: 8 Modules
40-45 Tons: 7 Modules
50-55 Tons: 6 Modules
60-65 Tons: 5 Modules
70-75 Tons: 4 Modules
80-85 Tons: 3 Modules
90-95 Tons: 2 Modules
100 Tons: 1 Module

Of course, we first have to find 9-10 modules worth equipping... And you'll grind a lot for all these modules.

3. Consumables:
Lighter mechs can use a single consumable more than once. (No extra cost, but if you use it only once, it's still used up.)
20 Tons: 5
25-40 Tons: 4
45-60 Tons: 3
65-80 Tons: 2
85-100 Tons: 1

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 24 May 2013 - 08:00 AM.

[Stoicblitzer]

jeffsw6, on 23 May 2013 - 12:02 AM, said:

I believe the maximum detection range for the Advanced Seismic Sensor is 240m. It is an anti-brawler device. IMO this does not necessarily make it pro-boater. When I am playing my brawling mech in a team game, my role is usually to defend my team's ... over-powered ranged mechs (PPC/LRM boats.) Hrm. I see your point.

dk if someone has corrected you yet...400m adv seismic

[FupDup]

MustrumRidcully, on 24 May 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

I hope you didn't take that seriously.



I think all the ideas with tonnage matching and battle value matching forget one problem - population size. If more people have fun with Assaults than with, say, Lights or Mediums, then all of these methods will lead the match-maker to either create imbalanced matches, or people waiting longer for matches.

The developers really need to find a way to make sure A Light is as powerful and useful as a Medium, a Heavy or an Assault, and vice versa and interminxed and whatever. If then still only 11 % like the Light play style, so be it. But you won't get people to have fun in mechs they don't enjoy. You can only ensure that whatever mech type you choose, you can be a valuable asset and not dragged down by your mech choice.


---

Here's a crazy idea:

1. Hard Points
Existing hard points for variants will be changed, based on the following:
Light Mechs: All Light Mechs get an ECM hard point. Mechs that already have an ECM hardpoint get either an extra weapon hard point or a 25 % radius increase to the ECM effect.
Mediums: All Mediums variants can either get an ECM hard point or a Dual AMS hard point. Mechs that already have an ECM hardpoint get either an extra weapon hard point or a 25 % radius increase to the ECM effect.
Heavies: Heavy variants can get an ECM hard point only via sacrificing an AMS or weapon hard point (compared to the other chassis of the mech or the current variant, if an existing variant is changed)
Assaults: Assault variants can get ECM only via sacrificing an AMS and a weapon hard point, or 2 weapon hard points. (This could mean for the DDC that it loses a ballistic and a missile hard point.)

2. Module Options
The base number of module slots for mechs is dependent on weight. (You can still gain extra modules for mastering a chassis.)
20-25 Tons: 9 Modules
30-35 Tons: 8 Modules
40-45 Tons: 7 Modules
50-55 Tons: 6 Modules
60-65 Tons: 5 Modules
70-75 Tons: 4 Modules
80-85 Tons: 3 Modules
90-95 Tons: 2 Modules
100 Tons: 1 Module

Of course, we first have to find 9-10 modules worth equipping... And you'll grind a lot for all these modules.

3. Consumables:
Lighter mechs can use a single consumable more than once. (No extra cost, but if you use it only once, it's still used up.)
20 Tons: 5
25-40 Tons: 4
45-60 Tons: 3
65-80 Tons: 2
85-100 Tons: 1

I guess I jumped the gun on that one and took your previous post too seriously. Whoopsies. I tend to get that way when light mechs are the topic of discussion. O_o

Edited by FupDup, 24 May 2013 - 08:05 AM.

[Mindwipe]

A lot of people are making seismic out to be very anti-light and I can see that but I've been using it on my Spider for a few days and while I think it's way to powerful for a module slot it's very useful for a light mech.

I've used it when capping something to see exactly where the enemy is coming from to stop me. It lets me hug the correct spot on the capture point for a few more seconds and to know where and when to start my acceleration for either fight or flight. I've also used it flanking to see who else has one, it can be fun to see how many dots you can get following you. You can make a nice train without ever seeing what is actually following you. In many ways you can use enemy sensors to pull them away much like capping to break their lines does. Won't work against good opponents but at whatever level of ELO I have its worked even if it wasn't my intention at the time.

Seismic is also great for breaking engagements. I had a match against a good Dragon pilot this morning in River City. He kept his back to buildings and knew his light hunting but at least with seismic I could see where he was and take time to pick my angles and when I saw his two Atlas buddies finally catch up I knew it was time to leave before they could even see me to shoot.

Frankly I agree it's way to good and changes the game a lot, but I really think it hinders and helps all classes about equally. Hopefully they'll change it to some formula based on speed times tonnage to show the dots and maybe have terrain features (like those objective pumps) which throw up weak or strong signals as well. I would think that a light moving at 150km/h has to be putting about the same force down as the much larger assaults with the big weight displacing feet but the light could quickly vanish at slower speeds while that Altas is always going to be putting one hundred tons on the grounds per stride.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Sephlock, on 24 May 2013 - 01:07 AM, said:

How about we make the other modules suck a bit less instead?

Toning one module down is a lot easier than redesigning 10+ other ones.

[Screech]

Fate 6, on 23 May 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

I honestly think every mech should have it by default. It's called radar.

It is so much better then radar. Its more like god's version of radar, Godar.

[Corvus Antaka]

it is fine. just needs some counter sensors, like muffle & tremor. maybe curb range to 150m/300m