23 replies to this topic

[MungFuSensei]

Big numbers make you feel good. Having 70+ firepower on your mech makes you feel like some kind of god. However, most of the time, those high alpha builds sit idle trying to cool down.

I'm finding it much better to have, say, just one ER PPC and a bunch of heatsinks rather than 2 or even 4 ER PPCs. High heat builds are screwed in those moments where you HAVE to take a shot, even if it shuts you down. Low heat builds don't need to worry about holding back, and over time are able to put out a lot more damage.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. CPLT-K2

You'll notice it has a similar weapon loadout as the champion Dragon. Also, it is not a sustained damage build, meaning it doesn't have to constantly keep shooting without taking cover. It pops out, takes its shot, and pops back into cover. The key to this over other sniper builds is that it can keep going, popping out after weapon reload, rather than waiting for heat to dissipate.

The weapons themselves aren't low alpha types. You don't need hordes of them. Each one on its own can put out an acceptable amount of damage. 9-15 damage per shot is a good range for the type of weapons we're looking for. Each shot isn't going to really worry anyone, but it's still enough damage that it can't be ignored.

This brings me to another point. You don't need 4+ large lasers for them to be effective. After using them for a while, you get the hang of the beam duration, and learn how to keep them on target. Just two large lasers have almost double the damage of an ER PPC for less heat and 3 more tons. Much more efficient, especially since energy slots are a dime a dozen. Make them ERs and the efficiency is even better, due to more damage at longer ranges. Furthermore, you never really miss with lasers. Sure, you may not get the whole beam duration on target, but with a bit of aim correction you're always getting SOME damage onto the target. If you miss with a PPC, you just wasted all that heat.

Say you don't want to snipe, but want to brawl. Ghetto Delight

This super cheap build can be quite surprising. First started making the round early in the beta, but has since lost favor. However, even with the extremely close range, that's 27 damage every 2.25 seconds! That's like 436 damage (if my math is correct) before you even overheat! With non stop firing! If you stick close to an atlas to hide behind, and then pop out once the brawl starts, the low range shouldn't matter.

So start thinking about your builds not as how much damage it can do in one shot, but rather how much damage it can do without letting up on the trigger before it overheats. You will be quite surprised at how well you can perform.

[Lord Ikka]

Interesting builds. I quite like the K2 build, going to have to try it out. The 4P however, I am not a big fan of for the lack of range. Take off the two small lasers on the arms and the 2nd right arm DHS for two medium lasers and its better in my book.

[MungFuSensei]

Lord Ikka, on 11 October 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

Interesting builds. I quite like the K2 build, going to have to try it out. The 4P however, I am not a big fan of for the lack of range. Take off the two small lasers on the arms and the 2nd right arm DHS for two medium lasers and its better in my book.

The 4P build is just kind of a proof of concept. It has a respectable alpha that doesn't put you in danger of overheating. You're right, though. I've had a lot of fun with the K2, although my build is a bit different. I moved all the back armor to the front, since I sit way back and only ever get someone behind me if I did something wrong. That's heresy to a lot of people but 84 CT armor is a godsend when that's really the only thing that the enemy shoots at. This allows me to trade in my favor with AC2 jagers in sniping duels.

[Lord Ikka]

I'll probably drop a ton of gauss ammo to put back some of the arm armor- I like having the arms as small shields on the K2. They don't soak up a ton of damage, but any they can helps.

[MungFuSensei]

Lord Ikka, on 11 October 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

I'll probably drop a ton of gauss ammo to put back some of the arm armor- I like having the arms as small shields on the K2. They don't soak up a ton of damage, but any they can helps.

Your CT is such a massive target in the Cat that the arms, if you don't have PPCs in them, aren't in the way of anything. They may get stray hits, but that doesn't really save your CT from getting hit. Also, once the armorless arms go yellow, then they become a target, become a much more effective shield because people wanna go for easy Component Destructions. Trust me, you won't miss the armor.

Furthermore, 40 gauss rounds is the sweet spot. With 30, you know that you will run out if you survive throughout the match. With 40, it gives you wiggle room to take those "maybe it'll hit" shots. And even with 40, I've run out.

Edited by MungFuSensei, 11 October 2013 - 04:55 PM.

[Buckminster]

It's the same basic theory I run my K2 on:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b75ccee5245200e

I've had a lot of people wonder why I don't put more energy weapons on, or why I have the MGs instead of an AC or something. But it's really fairly simple - the MGs are heat-free weapons, and that allows for those DHS to completely focus on keeping those ERPPCs cool. I can shoot all darned day, and with the exception of some of the hotter maps, I never need to worry about heat. (for the record, I prefer the ballistic-style shooting of ERPPCs over the beam style of lasers)

[Dawnstealer]

My Atlas RS is like that: 4 LLs and an AC20. I almost never shoot the AC20 unless I'm in a serious brawl and need the extra punch. Otherwise, it's those LLs on chain fire just going one after the other again and again and again; enemies just melt in the face of that, especially if you aim well.

The build (pretty simple):

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e55248362117f89

- that's not quite right, because I think I move faster, but it's close. While not completely neutral, it's close: you can continuously fire for a long, long time.

[Kjudoon]

Two words: Chain Fire.

There's the concept you're looking for. Fireing one constantly and keeping temperature. After that, it's all flavor text.

[MungFuSensei]

Kjudoon, on 11 October 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

Two words: Chain Fire.

There's the concept you're looking for. Fireing one constantly and keeping temperature. After that, it's all flavor text.

Even with chain fire, you need to find a sweet spot of heat vs damage output. If chain firing 3 large lasers gets me better damage over time without over heating, then 4 is a waste. That's the point I'm trying to make: optimizing damage while negating heat issues. Furthermore, if you're just looking at chain fire, then things like the gauss rifle skew the data, as it hits the extreme ends of low heat, high damage, high cool down. Similarly with the AC20 as well. The AC2 tends to have higher DPS, but at 7 more heat for the same amount of cycle time, so chain firing them is even worse with heat problems. This makes the AC5 a more appealing weapon, as a slight drop in DPS leads to much greater heat efficiency.

When you start thinking about your total weapon tonnage in terms of heat vs damage, it really changes how you build your mech. For example, take the bog standard 6 MLas jenner. That's 30 damage, with a time to overheat of 8 seconds. The math comes out to 80 damage per overheat cycle from 0 heat. If we switch those lasers to small pulses, that gives us 20.4 damage, with a 9 second time to overheat. That comes out the 81.4 damage per overheat cycle. If we look at sustained DPS (never overheating) the small pulse build has a .13 damage increase. Again, more efficient. Swich to endo/ferro/+3 DHS, and we're looking at a gap of .33 sustained DPS. Those numbers seem small, but we're talking about per second. If we look at the average 4 second duration for large weapons, that's like the difference between a large laser and a large pulse laser. Not insignificant.

[Kjudoon]

MungFuSensei, on 12 October 2013 - 01:20 AM, said:

Even with chain fire, you need to find a sweet spot of heat vs damage output. If chain firing 3 large lasers gets me better damage over time without over heating, then 4 is a waste. That's the point I'm trying to make: optimizing damage while negating heat issues. Furthermore, if you're just looking at chain fire, then things like the gauss rifle skew the data, as it hits the extreme ends of low heat, high damage, high cool down. Similarly with the AC20 as well. The AC2 tends to have higher DPS, but at 7 more heat for the same amount of cycle time, so chain firing them is even worse with heat problems. This makes the AC5 a more appealing weapon, as a slight drop in DPS leads to much greater heat efficiency.

When you start thinking about your total weapon tonnage in terms of heat vs damage, it really changes how you build your mech. For example, take the bog standard 6 MLas jenner. That's 30 damage, with a time to overheat of 8 seconds. The math comes out to 80 damage per overheat cycle from 0 heat. If we switch those lasers to small pulses, that gives us 20.4 damage, with a 9 second time to overheat. That comes out the 81.4 damage per overheat cycle. If we look at sustained DPS (never overheating) the small pulse build has a .13 damage increase. Again, more efficient. Swich to endo/ferro/+3 DHS, and we're looking at a gap of .33 sustained DPS. Those numbers seem small, but we're talking about per second. If we look at the average 4 second duration for large weapons, that's like the difference between a large laser and a large pulse laser. Not insignificant.

True, the sweet spot is something you and I agree with. I use your "Steady Stream" philosophy all the time with both LRMS and MLs. I always want at least one to two guns firing and able to maintain that load for long periods. I'm just saying that how this is accomplished is always based on balancing heat. So I agree, I'm just saying the main tool you have is chain fire. Now if you could get a constant stream of PPC fire and maintain heat.... wow... that'd be awesome to see, but I think it'd take 4 PPCs and 20 tons of DHS to pull it off.

[D04S02B04]

Note: I accept that I can be wrong in evaluating this. Put up some screenshots of your damage/kills at end game with this build.

IMO, totally incorrect concept. The amount of times I've destroyed teams of mechs with these config are countless. Actual combat in PUGs (even in pre-made games) are very different.

Criticism of the Catapult

Positioning
You have to keep yourself and the enemy at your ideal range of 600 - 700, which I would say is the best effective range compensating for ease to hit and maximum damage. There are very few maps, that allows you a clear lane of shot, without smart opponents weaving their way through terrain to engage.

Bad armour load out
You don't need to have more than 10/20/10 for rear armour. I would even go lower to 10/10/10 depending on my mech config and how I intend to use it. Your front armour at 40/56/40 you'll just get massacred by smart fast moving hunting medium mechs (ML & SRM)

Window of fire opportunity
While it sounds nice in theory that you can put out optimal fire, there are so many common situations that you do not account for.

1. There is only a certain window of time in battle, which you can fight at 600-700 distance, increasing your damage dealt to the enemy and reducing damage received. This window is extended only when both teams are absolute idiots (Assault Mechs firing 1 or 2 LRMs at the back).

2. You have to wait to time your shots because you're moving into cover, out of cover, lining up the shot, compensating for evasive action by enemy mechs (torso twisting, terrain cover, zig zag running). All this is exacerbated by competent opponents who return fire effectively (AC2s, LRMs) and smart pre-made lances who flank off main groups and pick out the enemy long range units.

3. If engaging a smart enemy team with long range load outs. They will trade shot for shot with you, with a more heat inefficient build out. When they are overheating, they just hide behind cover and you won't be able to hit anything even though you have no heat problems.

Wasted fast engine capacity
For all your catapult's fast moving capability, all it does is get you into position rapidly and allow you to fire from there. This only works on ultra large maps (like that stupid snow one) which gives you an opportunity to re-position. In reality your build requires a fight to take place and you'll be supporting that fight. If you're running away and unable to tank damage or put out sufficient burst damage, your team will lose.

Very well optimised for killing noobs in a very very ideal situation but nothing beyond that.

[D04S02B04]

Here's my alternative to your build. I've been getting 400 damage consistently with it. Why bring a Heavy when a Medium can do the job? I use Centurion, the CN9-AL for this.

It has better profile (not one large giant CT), moves faster for same engine cost, lower tonnage and good damage output. I'm a Medium mech putting out a Heavy and almost Assault damage.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b2aa3c96856868c

http://www.flickr.co...06/10236454176/

http://www.flickr.co...06/10236545973/

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cc251a0cc5a857d

2x ER LL, 2x ML for close up, 2x LRM5 to soften targets that is direct fire on.

Edited by D04S02B04, 12 October 2013 - 05:22 PM.

[Krazy Kat]

My version of the Ghetto Hunchback.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e4a23c6e0458d2e

One large laser on the left arm (that people never target) and lots of pewpew. It's a very balanced mech. One long range weapon and the rest close combat. It does tons of damage at close range and is very heat friendly. And if you lose your hunch you still have one LLAS to fight wuth.

[MungFuSensei]

D04S02B04, on 12 October 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

Here's my alternative to your build. I've been getting 400 damage consistently with it. Why bring a Heavy when a Medium can do the job? I use Centurion, the CN9-AL for this.

It has better profile (not one large giant CT), moves faster for same engine cost, lower tonnage and good damage output. I'm a Medium mech putting out a Heavy and almost Assault damage.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b2aa3c96856868c

http://www.flickr.co...06/10236454176/

http://www.flickr.co...06/10236545973/

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cc251a0cc5a857d

2x ER LL, 2x ML for close up, 2x LRM5 to soften targets that is direct fire on.

Concerning the Catapult, I understand what you're saying, but that's a lot of theory-crafting. In practice, I'm getting 550-650 damage and 1-2 kills consistently now that I've had some time with the build. I play it as a long range SUPPORT sniper. I'm not out to get any kills of my own. I'm there to provide focus fire. Timing the gauss shot to fire just at the end of the beam duration leads to a lot of component destruction. Also, I don't worry about optimum range. I will fire at the far end of my range as soon as I can. Those minor amounts of damage early on lead to squishier targets once the brawl starts. I like to engage at around 700-900m. This is where the speed comes into play. I re-position often after firing. Also, the speed determines how fast I accelerate forward and how fast I can back up, which helps extremely with popping in and out of cover. Beyond 700m, it's very easy to dodge LRMs, meaning I don't have to worry about using AMS. AC2 builds only get a second or two to fire on me, often times missing before they can track to target, which severely limits their damage output. Also, peeking out to get other snipers to fire early gives me more time to pop out and aim.

I will note that the build suffers when someone gets the drop on you, Especially those Atlases that SOMEHOW managed to get through to the late game without losing armor. Those fights are not impossible, though. Learning to play cat and mouse is key.

The build works quite well, it just requires some time to get used to it. As for the back armor, I noted in another reply that I actually don't use any at all. Positioning means I very rarely get shot in the back, and it's usually only by low powered lights, so it's never really been a problem. Having 84 CT armor is a godsend, though.

Now, the PPC cent build suffers from all of its weapons having a minimum range. The other cent build is decent, but you forgot that you had just enough slots for Endo, bumping up the engine to a 275 and adding another heatsink. There's nothing wrong with those builds, but it's just the fact that I'm getting similar speeds with better armor and heat efficiency. Furthermore, even if the cent has a smaller profile, the arms are more likely going to die first, losing your weapons. On the Cat, my CT is taking all the damage, and my weapons are very safe.

Every build has its flaws. There are no perfect builds. However, the point of this thread is to eek out as much as possible from each mech.

[Porthos49]

So with constant damage and minimal heat in mind, what would ya'll think of this:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...70019505110f01b

[MungFuSensei]

Porthos49, on 12 October 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

So with constant damage and minimal heat in mind, what would ya'll think of this:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...70019505110f01b

Well, you've gone to the other end of the spectrum. I'm not saying you wouldn't be able to dish out some damage, but that amount of cooling is completely unnecessary. Close to 50% heat efficiency is good. At that point, shutting down requires you to be firing non stop while being in lava. Try something like this: HBK-4G

You'll have much better damage output, better range, and you still won't really have to worry about shutting down.

[Porthos49]

Haha that's true. I kinda built it around the fact that I'm terrible with heat management, and wanted something kinda simple. I forgot about how crucial ammo placement is, though.

[Bront]

Sustained fire builds can be very effective, and honestly are very effective brawlers where that's a big issue. However, the other issue is that you don't always need to fire all of your weapons. Sometimes you don't fire your LLs because you're in ML/SRM range for example, or the ERPPC is for long range, and the rest of your loadout is for up close. You don't always have to be able to fire all of your weapons all of the time.

[Kjudoon]

So... something I'm wondering is how high SHOULD your heat sink efficiency be to maintain equilibrium in this? 1.3? 1.7? 2.0?

[MungFuSensei]

Bront, on 13 October 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

Sustained fire builds can be very effective, and honestly are very effective brawlers where that's a big issue. However, the other issue is that you don't always need to fire all of your weapons. Sometimes you don't fire your LLs because you're in ML/SRM range for example, or the ERPPC is for long range, and the rest of your loadout is for up close. You don't always have to be able to fire all of your weapons all of the time.

This is true, but I think only for heavies and assaults. Mediums and lights don't have the tonnage to devote their weapon slots to seperate ranges. They do much better by specializing.

Kjudoon, on 13 October 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

So... something I'm wondering is how high SHOULD your heat sink efficiency be to maintain equilibrium in this? 1.3? 1.7? 2.0?

1.5 is the point where you really never have to worry about overheating. Anything beyond that is wasted tonnage on heatsinks. The 1.4 range is still quite good. 1.3 and below is where heat management becomes an issue.