262 replies to this topic

[Shumabot]

Greyfyl, on 14 June 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

Wow...just wow. So I'm ignorant for assuming that hip-hop is not a positive cultural influence, but yet it's ok for you to assume that all middle class white people practice casual racism? I hope that is not what you are implying, because quite honestly that's about as racist a statement as you can make. Funny how that works. Reverse racism by minorities is perfectly fine.

I think we just need to stop here, this can't possibly go in a positive path.

No, you're ignorant because you're implying a causal relationship between a genre of music and increased crime while repeatedly implying that it's a racial derivative. You're making claims that require experience and knowledge of a subject matter that you are directly stating you have no experience in or knowledge of. That's a fairly fundamental logical flaw right there.

Also, you're claiming reverse racism which makes me suspect you have either a fedora or a wife beater on right now.

Edited by Shumabot, 14 June 2013 - 11:41 AM.

[Hellen Wheels]

Capt Cole 117, on 12 June 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

This looks like a list of the most populer shooters of today.

Yep. Kids these days expect instant gratification (read, "shoot something as quickly as possible and that's how you win".)

There isn't any room for REAL games that take thought and strategy, like Harpoon, TOAW, or the "gold box" classics from SSI, to name just a few. Those games were ground-breaking and had real depth and life to them.

Video "games" these days are little more than clicky clicky time wasters that rise not much above mindless slot machines, and that's where MWO seems to be headed, too. The ones I refer to took some brain effort.

I guess using your brain is discouraged in these consumerist times.

So much for the "thinking man's shooter". What a load of hype.

Edited by Hellen Wheels, 14 June 2013 - 01:09 PM.

[Shumabot]

Hellen Wheels, on 14 June 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

Yep. Kids these days (and the author of that article hasn't been around long) expect instant gratification (read, "shoot something as quickly as possible and that's how you win".)

There isn't any room for REAL games that take thought and strategy, like Harpoon, TOAW, or the "gold box" classics from SSI, to name just a few. Those games were ground-breaking and had real depth and life to them.

Video "games" these days are little more than clicky clicky time wasters that rise not much above mindless slot machines, and that's where MWO seems to be headed, too. The ones I refer to took some brain effort.

I guess using your brain is discouraged in these consumerist times.

So much for the "thinking man's shooter". What a load of hype.

Clearly having to find the blue key in every level to go through the clearly marked blue key door was the height of the "thinking mans" game. Kids these days, they'll never know the pure heights of quake and doom. They'll never realize how they're being catered too, they'll never understand how much thought it took to play delta force, a game where you had two guns and had to kill everything with literally no other feature.

Poor kids.

Edited by Shumabot, 14 June 2013 - 01:07 PM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Hellen Wheels, on 14 June 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

Yep. Kids these days expect instant gratification (read, "shoot something as quickly as possible and that's how you win".)

There isn't any room for REAL games that take thought and strategy, like Harpoon, TOAW, or the "gold box" classics from SSI, to name just a few. Those games were ground-breaking and had real depth and life to them.

1. Team Fortress 2
2. Half-Life 2
3. PlanetSide 2
4. Quake III
5. Borderlands 2
6. S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Call of Pripyat
7. Doom
8. Tribes: Ascend
9. Battlefield 1942
10. Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
11. Left 4 Dead 2
12. Battlefield 3
13. Counter-Strike
14. Far Cry 3
15. Natural Selection 2
16. Arma 2: Combined Operations
17. F.E.A.R.
18. Max Payne 3
19. MechWarrior Online
20. Red Orchestra 2: Heroes of Stalingrad
21. BioShock
22. Unreal Tournament
23. SWAT 4
24. Wolfenstein
25. No One Lives Forever

Ok, so over a fifth of those (which I have bolded) are fairly prominent or extreme examples of the reverse of what you're talking about. Consider ones where twitch is a defining combat feature but the game has a pronounced depth beyond that and you're talking about more than half the list.

That hill you walked up both ways, old man, it wasn't that steep. Blue key to the blue door. Red key to the red door. And the snow wasn't that cold either.

[FerretGR]

Greyfyl, on 13 June 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

But you can't honestly expect to come into an internet forum and say that hip-hop provides a positive cultural influence as a general blanket statement and expect people to agree with you.

Sure I can. Why would I assume that, just because I'm on an internet forum, the folks I'm having a discussion with are ignorant and loaded down with stereotypes?

Greyfyl, on 13 June 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

I think we should just agree to disagree, from my point of view any positive impact at this point is just a raindrop in the ocean compared to the huge negatives that have spawned from this 'culture'.

We can certainly agree to disagree, but be aware that your point of view doesn't represent reality. You're talking about a genre that you admittedly only have scratched the surface of. How, then, are you qualified to pass judgement on what proportion of hip hop is positive and what is negative? If you've experienced only 1% of something, to generalize that experience to the remaining 99% is a failure of logic.

Shumabot, on 13 June 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

No, Hip Hop is not a culture. Hip hop is a broad category of musical influences which are commonly co opted into urban subculture norms and which reciprocate those norms by placing them at the focal points of its own output. If Hip Hop is a culture so is EDM, Western, and any other broad spectrum of artistic output. Hip Hop is commonly self promoting in how it's advertised and created and tends to act exclusionary due to the focal points of its music, but it's hardly a culture. There are tens of thousands of music, fashion, and political entities that identify as functioning under the umbrella of hip hop influence, and they espouse just as many wildly divergent viewpoints, traditions, fashions, and everything else that makes a culture homogeneous. Without homogeneity you don't have a "culture" and hip hop clearly lacks it.

You're missing the point of my post I think. Hip hop is more than just rap. Hip hop is more than just music. Unlike EDM or country/western, there are things other than music that are a part of hip hop. I wouldn't make the claim if there wasn't more to hip hop than music. Google the 5 pillars of hip hop.

I'd agree that there are a number of places on the musical spectrum where hip hop's influence is felt, but that doesn't take anything away from the 5 elements that are central to hip hop. It certainly doesn't detract from hip hop's status as a culture, rather, it shows us how hip hop culture has influenced musical movements outside of rap.

As an aside, I disagree that a culture necessitates homogeneity. Consider Canadian culture: I think it'd be hard to claim there isn't such a thing, despite the fact that it is an amalgamation of vastly different cultures: the Irish/island culture of Newfoundland, the Francophone culture of Quebec, the Ukrainian culture present in the prairies, the Asian culture that is common on the west coast.

Sorry to resurrect the thread; I've been away for a few days :/ I'm still away and likely won't be back to argue my point for a few days, but perhaps we've sufficiently derailed this thread as it stands

[Shumabot]

Quote

You're missing the point of my post I think. Hip hop is more than just rap. Hip hop is more than just music. Unlike EDM or country/western, there are things other than music that are a part of hip hop. I wouldn't make the claim if there wasn't more to hip hop than music. Google the 5 pillars of hip hop.

The 5 Elements of hip hop are nonsense written 40 years ago by an urban anti gang renewal group, they are not only irrelevant but outdated and almost totally inapplicable to anyone who considers themselves either a fan or practitioner of hip hop "culture".

Quote

I'd agree that there are a number of places on the musical spectrum where hip hop's influence is felt, but that doesn't take anything away from the 5 elements that are central to hip hop. It certainly doesn't detract from hip hop's status as a culture, rather, it shows us how hip hop culture has influenced musical movements outside of rap.

Of course it detracts, especially considering half of the five pillars aren't even applicable to the act of creating or enjoying hip hop music. B-Boying fell off 20 years ago and graffiti writing was never a meaningful addition in the first place. You can't have a culture without a unifying element of some sort when your "culture" is evenly distributed across the entire planet. Hip Hop is far too varied.

Quote

As an aside, I disagree that a culture necessitates homogeneity. Consider Canadian culture: I think it'd be hard to claim there isn't such a thing, despite the fact that it is an amalgamation of vastly different cultures: the Irish/island culture of Newfoundland, the Francophone culture of Quebec, the Ukrainian culture present in the prairies, the Asian culture that is common on the west coast.

Canadian culture is the culture of people within the geography and national boundaries of Canada. To say that Hip Hop is a culture would imply a unifying and homogeneous principal that gathers these people into a "culture". It's self important nonsense, there is no such thing, and the 5 pillars of hip hope certainly don't provide such. Hip hop is a component of a culture, it is not one itself. Also, many canadians would argue with you about the existence of an overall canadian culture, but as a homogeneous national grouping it can be viewed to have traits unique to its setting.

Quote

Sorry to resurrect the thread; I've been away for a few days :/ I'm still away and likely won't be back to argue my point for a few days, but perhaps we've sufficiently derailed this thread as it stands

This threads original topic was bad in the first place.

[Aym]

Great, MWO is still in Beta and it's a "classic" that people should "go back" and play. Also, that article is going to be awful.

[Gaan Cathal]

Shumabot, on 15 June 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

Of course it detracts, especially considering half of the five pillars aren't even applicable to the act of creating or enjoying hip hop music. B-Boying fell off 20 years ago and graffiti writing was never a meaningful addition in the first place. You can't have a culture without a unifying element of some sort when your "culture" is evenly distributed across the entire planet. Hip Hop is far too varied.

Graffiti has always been central, although not exclusive, to the subculture in question. And I'd argue it's not 'evenly distributed across the entire planet' either. South london urban (sub)culture is heavily influenced by, and related to, hip-hop culture but it isn't hip-hop culture. Just because our urban underclass dress like your urban underclass doesn't mean they're the same underclass.

Shumabot, on 15 June 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

Canadian culture is the culture of people within the geography and national boundaries of Canada. To say that Hip Hop is a culture would imply a unifying and homogeneous principal that gathers these people into a "culture". It's self important nonsense, there is no such thing, and the 5 pillars of hip hope certainly don't provide such. Hip hop is a component of a culture, it is not one itself. Also, many canadians would argue with you about the existence of an overall canadian culture, but as a homogeneous national grouping it can be viewed to have traits unique to its setting.

Canadian culture isn't a thing. Vis: Quebec is in Canada. Quebec has a (famously) distinct culture based on historical franco-linguism as opposed to anglo-linguism.

Your definition of culture is simply inaccurate. A culture is any group of people who share a distinct, exclusionary social/habit structure comprise a culture. There's a 'goth' culture. There's a 'truck driver' culture. There's a 'Quebecois' culture. There's a 'british upper class' culture. Cultures can be socioeconomic, geographic, religious, ethnic, linguistic, class/caste-based or any combination thereof.

Often they share a name with a central unifying element. Goth culture and goth music. Quebecois culture and the geographical location of Quebec. Hip-hop culture and the integrally associated music genre.

[Shumabot]

Quote

Graffiti has always been central, although not exclusive, to the subculture in question. And I'd argue it's not 'evenly distributed across the entire planet' either. South london urban (sub)culture is heavily influenced by, and related to, hip-hop culture but it isn't hip-hop culture. Just because our urban underclass dress like your urban underclass doesn't mean they're the same underclass.

I agree, but I'd point out that the definition of hip hop as a culture is weakened when you start having to make case by case calls on whether the behaviors that supposedly imply a member of that culture does or does not do so. It's a no true scottsman thing.

Quote

Canadian culture isn't a thing. Vis: Quebec is in Canada. Quebec has a (famously) distinct culture based on historical franco-linguism as opposed to anglo-linguism.

Canadian culture is a thing because you can look at the homogeneous national and socioeconomic boundary of canada and view traits that are unique to that place, time, and social setting. There are certainly things that make classification difficult, but there's an "earth" culture too, and that encompasses the entirety of the planet. What makes Canadian culture Canadian culture is that it's the culture inherent to Canada, it's self affirming, regardless of whether it is varied of fluid. Hip hop doesn't have that because hip hop is a selective set of traits shared by a group spread across the entire planet, not a group homogenized and representative of itself. You can say there's a culture of people with black hair, a culture of people who like electric guitar, and a culture of people who think Up is a great movie, and you could be right. But that definition of culture is watered down to the point of worthlessness.

Quote

Often they share a name with a central unifying element. Goth culture and goth music. Quebecois culture and the geographical location of Quebec. Hip-hop culture and the integrally associated music genre.

Sure, but when you can't actually reasonably differentiate between someone in a culture and someone who simply shares all of the behaviors of someone in that culture it's not a particularly useful definition. Ferrets insistence of Hip Hop being a culture was feeding into Greyfils racist notion of the worth of a musical genre being defined by the worst members of it's associated "culture". If that's where a loose definition of "culture" takes us I'd rather stick with one that doesn't create logical loopholes and a billion one true Scotsman fallacies.

[Sug]

How many of those other shooters on the list have 3PV?

Sephlock, on 12 June 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

There was a brief window of time in which you could get 1 issue for free, and another immediately after that ended where you could subscribe, get that one issue, and cancel without paying a penny.

In the early years of PC Gamer you could request a free issue. I just did that every month for 2 years. Then they caught on.

[C E Dwyer]

Fabe, on 23 May 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

Wounder how long until the haters come in and accuse PGI of bribing PC gamer for a good review

PCgamer, has allways over scored, and called things great, on the level of hospitality, they recieve.
I was beta testing a game years ago, the one where you could be a dragon character, forget its name, I thought there must have been two games, and they got the titles mixed up.

Having said that, proves PGi's marketing division is in the top draw, so congo rats..and mines a triple brandy

[Kibble]

So that's where our founders money went too.

[Sug]

Kibble, on 19 June 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

So that's where our founders money went too.

Actually it went to fund Mechwarrior Tactics.

[Mr T]

Holy ****... 13 pages to figure out how we got to the societal messages and impacts of hip hop? No thanks.

[Sephlock]

Mr T, on 28 June 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

Holy ****... 13 pages to figure out how we got to the societal messages and impacts of hip hop? No thanks.

I pity the fool who reads through all that ****.

[DeathlyEyes]

Planetside 2 is ranked way too high. Battlefield 3 and Battlefield 2142 are much better than it along with counter strike global offensive

Edited by h4t3r4d3, 30 June 2013 - 04:07 PM.

[SmoothCriminal]

CS:GO above CS:S/CS1.6?

No Goldeneye?

No crysis?

Seems legit.

[r4plez]

Legit as ****

[MaxStr]

Whats a magazine? My dad used to keep some under the bed...

[Inveramsay]

Well done but is this game better than Half life and Opposing force? No way is my take on that