142 replies to this topic

[Dude42]

Appogee, on 24 May 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

Err, no. I came to the thread to report what I'd just seen.

By the way, I don't hate LRMs. They have a valid in-game role. But I do find LRM campers - who spend the entire game sitting behind rocks, letting their team do the work - kind of sad, frankly.

It's what n00bs do when they first play MechWarrior. But most grow out of it.

Well yea, everyone hates any kind of camper. But what do you think of poptarts?

[armyof1]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 May 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

Did you not read my post? Did you miss the part where LRM's have two counters, require extra equipment, double the minimum range and less maximum range? Did you miss the part where I explicitly state indirect firing without a spotter is terrible?

So why shouldn't LRM's do as much damage as PPC's do?

Oh man, the whole point of this thread was how lrm damage centers on CT. I've yet to say a single thing about amount of damage, I dunno why you're flying into that all by yourself.

Edited by armyof1, 24 May 2013 - 12:47 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Appogee, on 24 May 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

So you're saying, an LRM camper is really only worth half a normal player...?

I'm saying that LRM's require more than any other weapon system to be viable and has more counters than any other weapon ALL because of a crappy indirect firing mechanic that most people love to use as some end all be all of why LRM's should be nerfed.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

armyof1, on 24 May 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

Oh man, the whole point of this thread was how lrm damage centers on CT. I've yet to say a single thing about amount of damage, I dunno why you're flying into that all by yourself.

I was replying to Apoogeee or whatever his name is, did I quote you by accident?

Appogee, on 24 May 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

By the way, I don't hate LRMs. They have a valid role as part of a balanced build. But I do find LRM boaters - who spend the entire game sitting behind rocks, letting their team do the work - kind of sad, frankly.

This guy/thread is complaining about 2 LRM 15's.

Is that boating to you?

By the same token, is 3 Large Lasers boating to you?

Or 3 SRM 6's?

Or 3 anything?

Because the most LRM launchers i've ever run on a mech is 3 LRM 15's on a 90 ton mech.

[Koniving]

Monky, on 24 May 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

Cored 1 BJ with 2x LRM15 + artemis, little damage to any other section - 4 volleys

Second BJ cored with 4x Streak2, same situation. These where in live and in the same game post patch. - about 10 volleys

Pathing does seem better on LRM.

PGI, just remove the splash and have missiles lock on to individual sections of the mech rather than 'center of mass'. It's the only fix. Just do it.

Note: Splash is modified and/or gone. The pathing however was unchanged.

Niko Snow, on 23 May 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

CHANGE LIST
Gameplay:
-Changes to Missile damage and spread.

[Appogee]

Dude42, on 24 May 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

Well yea, everyone hates any kind of camper. But what do you think of poptarts?

I actually don't have too much of a problem with them. At least they have to come out of cover in order to fire, and can't just sit behind rocks waiting for missile locks on targets they can't even see.

I think JJ shake, especially when zoomed, would make pop-tarting a bit more balanced, because it would be harder for them to land an alpha on CT from >1000m metres.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Appogee, on 24 May 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

I actually don't have too much of a problem with them. At least they have to come out of cover in order to fire, and can't just sit behind rocks waiting for missile locks on targets they can't even see.

Seriously?

Do you even read what you post?

Good lord. Can someone else explain to him why this is stupid?

I will get banned trying to respond to this gem of utter...just wow.

[Budor]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 May 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

Seriously?

Do you even read what you post?

Good lord. Can someone else explain to him why this is stupid?

I will get banned trying to respond to this gem of utter...just wow.

I dont see whats wrong with what he said. You can sit in cover all day and core out mechs as long as others get target locks. Thats exactly why LRMs shouldnt do as much damage per ton as direct fire weapons.

But again, this thread was not about LRM damage being to high/low until you came in crying.

http://mwomercs.com/...ted-2013-03-15/

The part at the bottom by the dev responsible for balance.

Edited by Budor, 24 May 2013 - 01:02 PM.

[PappySmurf]

Monky, on 24 May 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

Cored 1 BJ with 2x LRM15 + artemis, little damage to any other section - 4 volleys

Second BJ cored with 4x Streak2, same situation. These where in live and in the same game post patch. - about 10 volleys

Pathing does seem better on LRM.

PGI, just remove the splash and have missiles lock on to individual sections of the mech rather than 'center of mass'. It's the only fix. Just do it.

NOOOO!!! its not the missiles its the armor is like paper and the mechs are cardboard ssrms are still weak even a Machine gun is more OP.

[Appogee]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 May 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

I'm saying that LRM's require more than any other weapon system to be viable and has more counters than any other weapon ALL because of a crappy indirect firing mechanic that most people love to use as some end all be all of why LRM's should be nerfed.

I thought your points on counters were good ones.

But as always, this discussion is about balance. And at the moment, the proof is on the scoreboard that LRMs are proving overpowered because - as the OP pointed out - splash damage is accumulating on the CT and knocking Mechs out of battle.

I note that the trajectory has been made more reasonable, which is good.

[Renthrak]

Kitane, on 24 May 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

Btw. both LRMs and Streaks are targetting random torso points since...December?

Only Streaks. LRMs home in on center mass, with a circular spread. So naturally, with Artemis/TAG making the circle smaller combined with the already tighter spiral spread pattern that they implemented a while back, the vast majority of damage is applied to the CT.

One Medic Army, on 24 May 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

My personal suggestion is to split missile volleys into packs of 5 and have each pack seek out a single hit location, somewhat like the streaks are supposed to be doing. Of course this will only work when splash is completely removed.

With the way Streaks seem to work, it looks like having each individual missile pick a random hit location should be possible, though that would effectively nerf smaller LRM launchers disproportionately.

In any case, I have a suggestion thread on this already:
http://mwomercs.com/...eeking-to-lrms/

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Budor, on 24 May 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

I dont see whats wrong with what he said. You can sit in cover all day and core out mechs as long as others get target locks. Thats exactly why LRMs shouldnt do as much damage per ton as direct fire weapons.

But again, this thread was not about LRM damage being to high/low until you came in crying.

Show me where I've complained about LRM damage being too high or too low.

The only actual damage number i've used is to refute Apoogeee's claim of 800 damage of indirect LRM fire.

And who are these magical people you see doing ALL this damage indirectly? Can you guys fraps it and show us?

Because you are talking out of your rear ends.

No one can spend an entire match standing in cover coring mechs unless the opposing team is completely inept.

[Appogee]

Budor, on 24 May 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

I dont see whats wrong with what he said. You can sit in cover all day and core out mechs as long as others get target locks. Thats exactly why LRMs shouldnt do as much damage per ton as direct fire weapons.

Careful, I sense Nicholas is in some kind of denial, my have a seizure when he is finally confronted with the ugly truth of how LRM boating is actually working. (You know, like Hawkeye in the last episide of MASH.)

As you say, I've spectated several times as LRM boaters have sat behind a rock, pointed their reticle at a distant target bracket through the rock, and then fire salvo after salvo. The cursor turns red, they get kills.

I even saw one power down when the last of his team mates died, trying to hide. It was if someone had distilled the essence of lame into a single number, and then cubed it .

Edited by Appogee, 24 May 2013 - 01:14 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Renthrak, on 24 May 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

With the way Streaks seem to work, it looks like having each individual missile pick a random hit location should be possible, though that would effectively nerf smaller LRM launchers disproportionately.

In any case, I have a suggestion thread on this already:
http://mwomercs.com/...eeking-to-lrms/

That's why I said groups of 5. Less processing required and actually buffs LRM5s relative to other launchers.

It's also closer to the way LRMs worked in TT if that matters to people.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I am killing the last hour at work while everyone else is already enjoying their 3 day weekend.

No seizures are occurring.

Do you understand how indirect fire works? And do you understand that if someone is standing behind a rock at 800m firing at someone, they get warnings? And all they need to do is break lock for 1 second to cause those missiles to miss?

What you guys are talking about just doesn't happen. I wish it did. Being someone who has always used LRM's I wish I could stand behind a rock the whole game and fire.

But it's just wrong. Unless like I said you are in a negative 1000 ELO bracket when you play.

And please don't ever come saying that it is more risky to play a poptart than a mech using LRM's.

Besides the fact that Poptarts only expose themselves for mere seconds while doing pinpoint damage to whichever mech point they want. They also have no issues fighting pointblank.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 24 May 2013 - 01:19 PM.

[Garrath]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 May 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

I am killing the last hour at work while everyone else is already enjoying their 3 day weekend.

No seizures are occurring.

Do you understand how indirect fire works? And do you understand that if someone is standing behind a rock at 800m firing at someone, they get warnings? And all they need to do is break lock for 1 second to cause those missiles to miss?

What you guys are talking about just doesn't happen. I wish it did. Being someone who has always used LRM's I wish I could stand behind a rock the whole game and fire.

But it's just wrong. Unless like I said you are in a negative 1000 ELO bracket when you play.

And please don't ever come saying that it is more risky to play a poptart than a mech using LRM's.

Besides the fact that Poptarts only expose themselves for mere seconds while doing pinpoint damage to whichever mech point they want. They also have no issues fighting pointblank.

What he said.

Plus, the CT focused damage should only be happening when a target is tagged and LOS/Artemis....as intended. Tightening missile grouping is supposed to reduce the areas hit and make it more focused. If the missile launcher is behind a hill, yeah the missiles might get to the target but the spread is huge and the damage is very light.

[Appogee]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 May 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

The only actual damage number i've used is to refute Apoogeee's claim of 800 damage of indirect LRM fire.

I have never said that.

I said ''... an LRM boat sitting 800m back from the battle''. He top-scored in the game, no idea what the score was.

So please don't misrepresent what I said.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 May 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

And who are these magical people you see doing ALL this damage indirectly? Can you guys fraps it and show us? Because you are talking out of your rear ends.

Just because you haven't personally seen it doesn't mean it's not happening.

Actually I think I will install FRAPS though because lameness of this magnitude does deserve to be immortalised.

Edited by Appogee, 24 May 2013 - 01:35 PM.

[Thanatos676]

I have played a few rounds since the fix, and they did indeed fix the issue.

[Appogee]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 May 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

And please don't ever come saying that it is more risky to play a poptart than a mech using LRM's.

Once again, you are making stuff up that noone actually said.

Please stick to responding to what people actually said, rather than the irrational things you'd have preferred them to have said.

[cyberFluke]

Dude42, on 24 May 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

Totally agree. LRM15+Artemis is 8 tons each, not counting ammo, tag, BAP, or narc. PPC is 7 tons. So if a target is standing out in the open, in direct LOS, Tagged, with artemis, the LRMs should actually be more effective than a PPC in that scenario, else it's underpowered and a waste of tonnage, and totally not balanced against other weapons. OP stated that he fired the equivalent of 8 LRM15+Artemis at a blackjack(medium mech) to take it down under those conditions. I argue that If I had made the same 4 shots with 2x PPCs, I would have cored the BJ even easier. Thus, LRMs are a waste of tonnage. Indirect fire is a different story, but that's not what OP was crying about.

Yeah, that'd be great if it took any skill at all to hold down the spam button alongside the tag laser, god forbid skill is rewarded in any way...