566 replies to this topic

[NitroBurst]

Poptarting will be more difficult in the future because of Jump Jet shaking. As for the 'Mech, I LUV IT!!!!

[Dawnstealer]

Bring on the Cyclops!!

[General Taskeen]

Nein, put the MG's in the leg. Redo the artwork for Leg Machine guns of doom. Death by leg-shot.

Edited by General Taskeen, 29 May 2013 - 09:10 AM.

[Damocles69]

Lovely. I'll take 4 please

[Sasha Volkova]

POOTYTANGASAUR, on 28 May 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

I can see it now, everyone running around with 3 gauss and 2 med lasers hahahahaahaahahah, ultimate ballistic sniper ****.

Well the thing is...
3 x Gauss is 45 tonnage.
Then a 300 XL to support that would be 15,5 tonnage onto the 45 making it 60,5
that leaves you 19,5 tonnage to play with.
You take 4 tons of ammo - 15,5 tonnage left.
Put 15,5 tonnage as armour then you have 480 points of armour.

Now... this setup will eat 33 crit slots(37 with the ammo)... thats out of 53 possible slots - that leaves 20 slots open.(16 with ammo)
meaning u can get endo steel which requires 14 crit slots - this gives you an additional 4 tonnage tp play with again (since the mech is 80 tonnage)

That means a total of 6 tons of Gauss ammo (since we just added 2 tons of ammo)
and 2 medium lasers.
Leaving you at exactly 80 tonnage
with 3 x Gauss + 2 M lasers
with a 300 XL - making you move 60,7 or 66,8 with speed tweak. (a little faster than most standard heavies and more than 10 kph faster than a stock Atlas.)

Spoiler

Luckily the Victor model you are referring - the VTR-9A1 - has its 2 extra balistic slots in the legs meaning it can only be machineguns or AC/2's at best... :b
THANK KERENSKY ITS NOT THE L/R TORSOS!

Edit: cuz engrish is hard :3

Edited by 0okami, 29 May 2013 - 02:48 PM.

[Odanan]

0okami, on 29 May 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Well the thing is...
3 x Gauss is 45 tonnage.
Then a 300 XL to support that would be 15,5 tonnage onto the 45 making it 60,5
that leaves you 19,5 tonnage to play with.
You take 4 tons of ammo - 15,5 tonnage left.
Put 15,5 tonnage as armour then you have 480 points of armour.

Now... this setup will eat 33 crit slots(37 with the ammo)... thats out of 53 possible slots - that leaves 20 slots open.(16 with ammo)
meaning u can get endo steel which requires 14 crit slots - this gives you an additional 4 tonnage tp play with again (since the mech is 80 tonnage)

That means a total of 6 tons of Gauss ammo (since we just added 2 tons of ammo)
and 2 medium lasers.
Leaving you at exactly 80 tonnage
with 3 x Gauss + 2 M lasers
with a 300 XL - making you move 60,7 or 66,8 with speed tweak. (a little faster than most standard heavies and more than 10 kph faster than a stock Atlas.)

Spoiler

Luckily the Victor model you are referring - the VTR-9A1 - has its 2 extra balistic slots in the legs meaning it can only be machineguns or AC/2's at best... :b
THANK KERENSKY ITS NOT THE L/R TORSOS!

Hehehe but I don't see why not move these MGs to the side torsos, like they did with the Cicada. MWO doesn't support weapons in the legs, BTW.
Triple Gauss might look very powerful, but that wouldalso make the mech very vulnerable (specially with the XL Engine).

It is a glass cannon. I would love to see it in the game.

[SgtMagor]

45 alpha every 4 secs with hardly any heat to speak of, chainfire gauss rifles for full effect. its ebil

[Odanan]

It's beautiful.

[Lokust Davion]

Victor makes me proud of being a Davion. It shall be my assault mech of choice.

[Ngamok]

Lokust Davion, on 30 May 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:

Victor makes me proud of being a Davion. It shall be my assault mech of choice.

As a Windbourne Highlander it has been the Highlanders !!

[General Taskeen]

Odanan, on 29 May 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

Hehehe but I don't see why not move these MGs to the side torsos, like they did with the Cicada. MWO doesn't support weapons in the legs, BTW.
Triple Gauss might look very powerful, but that wouldalso make the mech very vulnerable (specially with the XL Engine).

It is a glass cannon. I would love to see it in the game.

The Cicada was made based on the record sheets. They were able to fudge 1 variant because the canon sheets did not match the original Battle Tech artwork. This issue is even officially noted on sarna.net. So far, only rear weapons have been corrected to fire forward. Obviously the MG's on that Victor variant fire forward, so either they come up with a way to make them fire from the legs (which would be uniquely amazing, but probably would be highly inaccurate if the legs are articulating while moving) or they move them to the torso's. Another thing is that MG's are highly worthless in MWO, but 2 MG's are worth it in MW3, because they can actually destroy a Mech. If MG's are made unworthless, then something like the Victor with leg-mounted MG's wouldn't be a wasted hardpoint location.

Edited by General Taskeen, 30 May 2013 - 06:31 AM.

[Viper69]

Adridos, on 29 May 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

[Redacted] "They are so bad at aiming it's insulting to the player!" is full of 2 19. I'll put you in a machine, then heat it up to some 120°C and leave you with a joystick for aiming. No convergence, those machines use good ol' fashined aiming. That a stupid computer does magic and you can hit something in a video-game means nothing when compered to real shooting, let alone BTech shooting... So cut it out.

I'm sorry if you [Redacted] got upset about me telling you the truth about how things are and that you aren't top-of-the line commando from playing Call of Duty 3-billion....

Maybe they should make the game like this instead of the other way around. Only people who like FPS love pinpoint accuracy of weapons. Those of us who like simulators want some sort of inconsistency in things. All mechanical things have tolerances and weapons are no different. The game needs to move away from the path it is headed before turning back turns more people away. Sadly though the shooter crowd is much larger than the sim crowd and far more whiny.

[MasterErrant]

One of my all time favs. I shudder to think what distortions they are gonna make of it...What'll it be four Hardpoints cause that's what the stock mech has.

[MasterErrant]

One of my all time favs. I shudder to think what distortions they are gonna make of it...What'll it be four Hardpoints cause that's what the stock mech has.

[DarcStormm]

Definitely looking forward to this mech. One of my favorite classes.

[Iron Savior]

Adridos, on 29 May 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

Little child got his favorite toy pee'd on?

I'll tell you this, you couldn't hit a barn door with a minigun's full magazine even if you were few centimeters before it. Your pathetic: "They are so bad at aiming it's insulting to the player!" is full of 2 19. I'll put you in a machine, then heat it up to some 120°C and leave you with a joystick for aiming. No convergence, those machines use good ol' fashined aiming. That a stupid computer does magic and you can hit something in a video-game means nothing when compered to real shooting, let alone BTech shooting... So cut it out.

I'm sorry if you kiddie got upset about me telling you the truth about how things are and that you aren't top-of-the line commando from playing Call of Duty 3-billion....

I'm sorry, but what you're talking about is insanity. If the US military had weapons and vehicles as inaccurate as the standard battlemech, they would sue and decommission the companies that produce them.

You have no idea what you're talkin about and it's obvious, I'm truly sorry but you don't.

>120°C

Scuse me? Water boils at 212 FAHRENHEIT, where are you getting these numbers from? A computer does not use "magic" as it is technology grounded in reality. A fusion reactor is probably upwards of 11K Celsius where the reaction is taking place, about the surface of the sun. Humans generally are at risk of heat stroke when you get past 100F, and risk of death from exposure, dehydration, and heat stroke increase dramatically after a certain threshold. And I'ma tell you, it's not 250F.

21st century MBT's are capable of firing ACCURATELY on the MOVE at targets not even in visual range. They're mass produced, powerful, not particularly expensive for their destructive might, incredibly durable, and get this: they actually perform to expectations. They also don't create nuclear explosions when they're incapacitated and destroyed.

Also, I don't pilot an atlas, and spiders are a joke in game. All they do is JJ, which is PERFECT for assaults to land an alpha, because you come to a full stop for 1 or 2 seconds when you land. Bullet bait. An atlas vs a spider is a legging waiting to happen, it's only a matter of time. You just can't spend enough time behind them, it's not possible. You throw it in reverse, twist to the other side, and doing this you only spend 1 or 2 seconds looking at rear armor for every 5 or 6 you spend facing eachother.

People are not capable of firing or even holding a minigun, the recoil would spin you right round before tearing your arm off, and the battery powerrequired would weigh dozens of pounds alone. However, people are capable of firing accurately when aiming down sights, using singular or burst fire, even if they're on the move (not a sprint). So your comparison is ridiculous and irrelevant.

However, helicopters, a-10 warthogs, and other vehicles with miniguns don't have this problem. They get their ordinance to the target accurately. They also do it at incredible ranges.

Battlemechs lore wise don't. Not only are they incredibly inaccurate, their engagement range is severely limited, and (not that I mind this part) their weapon payloads are incredibly weak and limited. LRMs aren't used in reality because multiple small warheads are only useful for cluster bombings; generally all missiles, cruise missiles, and rockets are singlular, large projectiles.

The average engagement in BT lore with mechs is from 100-200 meters to 800 to 1400 meters or so. Which is ridiculous.

Close quarters combat is considered 200meters or less between *infantry*. Actual engagements between infantry in war and battles are generally 500 to 800m, you're shooting at targets you can't see or make out clearly without scopes or binocs.

Also, all weapon systems that are on two sides of a vehicle have convergance, even in the 20th century. Even WW2 planes had converged weaponry, where at a specific range the accuracy was 'pinpoint'.

Basically, I would bet you entire paychecks (not that you make money) that an average detachment of the US military could handle BT styled battlemechs of equal worth. The mechs wouldn't even get into range. They'd get blown out of the sky before landing, fighter jets and intercept craft are capable of speeds far past mach 3 now, and capable of delivering firepower milees and miles away. Mechs would just be slow moving, bulky targets on a radar screen that would never make it to the actual fight before getting blown away. It'd be a complete joke of a fight. You wouldn't even need to actively deploy personel and equipment on site; a simple air or naval strike would be enough.



It sounds like you have no idea what you're talking about, or have any real knowledge of actual military tactics, strategy, or force.

If mechs existed in real life they would have very few, but incredibly powerful weapon systems (if they ever got that far) and they would be firing at targets upwards of dozens of kilometers away. Range is a force multiplier, and no body chooses to engage at short ranges unless they have to. They'd be 2nd line units because they're so expensive and (realistically) fragile. 1st line assault units would be tanks and mechanize infantry, who would move in after carpet bombing, artillery or CAS does it's thing. Basic modern strategy.


Real mechs would also probably be much, much smaller, or be manned by crews of 2-4 people, like actual tanks. There would be a gunner, a pilot, and probably someone to man communications or assist in reloading or something. The gunner would thus, theoretically, have a much easier time aiming. Also they'd all have built in standardized guidance and targeting systems, much like the M1 Abrams. Again, a 21st century MBT that's mass produced and capable of losing its treads and still moving, capable of surviving intense damage, and capable of firing accurately and making kills at ranges in excess of 2500m.

Not only that but they would probably have huge counter measures and defense; reactive armor, angled armor, as well as anti-missile systems (not projectile based; those are for static defenses and navy), smoke screens, and fire suppression systems. They'd also not be affected by weapons generating heat; no combat vehicle shuts down or has it's performance degraded by firing its weapons. Weapons generate heat and need to be stopped firing to protect the weapon from warping, not to protect the vehicle. Your body temp doesn't spike 5F every time you fire a round with a rifle, for instance.


Go read some sun tzu and watch the history channel or something. Seriously.


Also as someone who waited 12 years for this game, I'm baffled that you have the gall to call me "kiddie". People were born and they died while I waited for this game. If you said that to me in real life I would fold you in half like cardboard. It's legit fighting words.

Not only that but you're 16. I'm old enough to marry your mother and adopt you as my son. I'd then immediately send you to boarding school. Have you even played the older games? Because I fell in love with BT and MW before you were even born. I waited longer for this game than you were even aware of BT's existance. I was playing MW2 and 3 before you were even self aware.

Go sit in a corner.

Viper69, on 30 May 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

Maybe they should make the game like this instead of the other way around. Only people who like FPS love pinpoint accuracy of weapons. Those of us who like simulators want some sort of inconsistency in things. All mechanical things have tolerances and weapons are no different. The game needs to move away from the path it is headed before turning back turns more people away. Sadly though the shooter crowd is much larger than the sim crowd and far more whiny.

Random elements in games is how you remove skill and (unfairly) level the playing field. Doing so dumbs down the game and lowers both the skill floor, and ceilings.

Look at games that had major competitive scenes. They have very little randomness. Look at quake 3, or tribes. Even CS 1.6 had general patterns the guns followed, rather than just a generic random cone of fire. If I rememebr right, AKs pulled to the right, like an upside down L, for instance. However, the first bullet was almost always pixel perfect accurate, thus allowing skilled players to make headshots consistently.

Even CoD, which is the epitome of no-skill auto aim console FPS has fairly standardized weapons with very tight cones of fire.

On the other hand a game like Halo has lots and lots and lots of pinpoint accurate weapons, and it's why the competitive scene for consoles took off. There was very little randomness outside of the assault rifles, which allowed skilled players to be consistently accurate.


Nerfing player accuracy through an RNG does nothing but hurt skilled players. It's truly a despicable thing to ask for, even in the vein of "realism," as, like I said, it waters down the experience, and players feel cheated when they miss shots they would have otherwise made.






Edit: I'd also say that this game is far too-arcadey to be considered a simulator. I will admit that, ever since bitchin betty got put in (thank christ) the game is definitely pushin the boundries at least a tad; it's quite immersive as is. The sound engine is also amazing, as is heat balance for the most part.


I'm still confused about how randomly internals are damaged from heat however srsly wtf sometimes my arms and legs are flashing and once in a while my ct just turns into a small star instantly




2nd Edit: I donno why I started talkin about spiders, I'm only a little tipsy atm. But still, my point remains, JJs are not used effectively enough by most pilots unless they're hiding behind a ridge. Once it's a flat plane, you're just jumping in a predictable pattern. With heavies/assaults, you don't have enough speed to really take advantage of your JJs.

Edited by Iron Savior, 01 June 2013 - 09:59 PM.

[Lagfest]

I doubt I'm gonna get one...
I have the Orion and the Highlander is too similar.

Hero version possible. but not likley

[Adridos]

Iron Savior, on 01 June 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

I'm sorry, but what you're talking about is insanity. If the US military had weapons and vehicles as inaccurate as the standard battlemech, they would sue and decommission the companies that produce them.

You have no idea what you're talkin about and it's obvious, I'm truly sorry but you don't.

>120°C

Scuse me? Water boils at 212 FAHRENHEIT, where are you getting these numbers from? A computer does not use "magic" as it is technology grounded in reality. A fusion reactor is probably upwards of 11K Celsius where the reaction is taking place, about the surface of the sun. Humans generally are at risk of heat stroke when you get past 100F, and risk of death from exposure, dehydration, and heat stroke increase dramatically after a certain threshold. And I'ma tell you, it's not 250F.

21st century MBT's are capable of firing ACCURATELY on the MOVE at targets not even in visual range. They're mass produced, powerful, not particularly expensive for their destructive might, incredibly durable, and get this: they actually perform to expectations. They also don't create nuclear explosions when they're incapacitated and destroyed.

Also, I don't pilot an atlas, and spiders are a joke in game. All they do is JJ, which is PERFECT for assaults to land an alpha, because you come to a full stop for 1 or 2 seconds when you land. Bullet bait. An atlas vs a spider is a legging waiting to happen, it's only a matter of time. You just can't spend enough time behind them, it's not possible. You throw it in reverse, twist to the other side, and doing this you only spend 1 or 2 seconds looking at rear armor for every 5 or 6 you spend facing eachother.

People are not capable of firing or even holding a minigun, the recoil would spin you right round before tearing your arm off, and the battery powerrequired would weigh dozens of pounds alone. However, people are capable of firing accurately when aiming down sights, using singular or burst fire, even if they're on the move (not a sprint). So your comparison is ridiculous and irrelevant.

However, helicopters, a-10 warthogs, and other vehicles with miniguns don't have this problem. They get their ordinance to the target accurately. They also do it at incredible ranges.

Battlemechs lore wise don't. Not only are they incredibly inaccurate, their engagement range is severely limited, and (not that I mind this part) their weapon payloads are incredibly weak and limited. LRMs aren't used in reality because multiple small warheads are only useful for cluster bombings; generally all missiles, cruise missiles, and rockets are singlular, large projectiles.

The average engagement in BT lore with mechs is from 100-200 meters to 800 to 1400 meters or so. Which is ridiculous.

Close quarters combat is considered 200meters or less between *infantry*. Actual engagements between infantry in war and battles are generally 500 to 800m, you're shooting at targets you can't see or make out clearly without scopes or binocs.

Also, all weapon systems that are on two sides of a vehicle have convergance, even in the 20th century. Even WW2 planes had converged weaponry, where at a specific range the accuracy was 'pinpoint'.

Basically, I would bet you entire paychecks (not that you make money) that an average detachment of the US military could handle BT styled battlemechs of equal worth. The mechs wouldn't even get into range. They'd get blown out of the sky before landing, fighter jets and intercept craft are capable of speeds far past mach 3 now, and capable of delivering firepower milees and miles away. Mechs would just be slow moving, bulky targets on a radar screen that would never make it to the actual fight before getting blown away. It'd be a complete joke of a fight. You wouldn't even need to actively deploy personel and equipment on site; a simple air or naval strike would be enough.



It sounds like you have no idea what you're talking about, or have any real knowledge of actual military tactics, strategy, or force.

If mechs existed in real life they would have very few, but incredibly powerful weapon systems (if they ever got that far) and they would be firing at targets upwards of dozens of kilometers away. Range is a force multiplier, and no body chooses to engage at short ranges unless they have to. They'd be 2nd line units because they're so expensive and (realistically) fragile. 1st line assault units would be tanks and mechanize infantry, who would move in after carpet bombing, artillery or CAS does it's thing. Basic modern strategy.


Real mechs would also probably be much, much smaller, or be manned by crews of 2-4 people, like actual tanks. There would be a gunner, a pilot, and probably someone to man communications or assist in reloading or something. The gunner would thus, theoretically, have a much easier time aiming. Also they'd all have built in standardized guidance and targeting systems, much like the M1 Abrams. Again, a 21st century MBT that's mass produced and capable of losing its treads and still moving, capable of surviving intense damage, and capable of firing accurately and making kills at ranges in excess of 2500m.

Not only that but they would probably have huge counter measures and defense; reactive armor, angled armor, as well as anti-missile systems (not projectile based; those are for static defenses and navy), smoke screens, and fire suppression systems. They'd also not be affected by weapons generating heat; no combat vehicle shuts down or has it's performance degraded by firing its weapons. Weapons generate heat and need to be stopped firing to protect the weapon from warping, not to protect the vehicle. Your body temp doesn't spike 5F every time you fire a round with a rifle, for instance.


Go read some sun tzu and watch the history channel or something. Seriously.


Also as someone who waited 12 years for this game, I'm baffled that you have the gall to call me "kiddie". People were born and they died while I waited for this game. If you said that to me in real life I would fold you in half like cardboard. It's legit fighting words.

Not only that but you're 16. I'm old enough to marry your mother and adopt you as my son. I'd then immediately send you to boarding school. Have you even played the older games? Because I fell in love with BT and MW before you were even born. I waited longer for this game than you were even aware of BT's existance. I was playing MW2 and 3 before you were even self aware.

Go sit in a corner.

I see you are a master of the ancient human skill of talking for straight hours/ writing entire pages of text and say absolutely nothing at all...

Battlemechs don't go nuclear...

Yes, it is around 120°C. That's why they have cooling vests and pass out regularly while piloting mechs.

I have never ever mentioned modern military. If you want to base a game where everything is as powerful as it is in real world, then good luck, it would be a game of who fires his tac nukes, ICBM and who knows what sooner. MY argument was about having to actually aim instead of using modern technology to do it for you, taking the fun away (as this is all in all a game).

As far as miniguns are concerned, did it cross your mind I never mentioned that you'll be holding it? Didn't matter to you, I see, becuase obviously I couldn't know anything about those things....

Then you go and start talking about the superiority of modern army over BTech... which is something this discussion never had anything to do with and the non-realness of the BTech is an accepted fact.

For the last nail to the coffin, you bring up the good ol' ad hominem fallacies about my age...

You are acting like a kid and well under the level you should be if your age is as high as I assume, therefor you are fit for being called a kiddie.


P.S. Yes, I played all the BTECH games with the exception of the MW4: Black knight and those two Crescent Hawks.

[Odanan]

Hey boys, get a (war) room.

(let's sort this out in the field of battle)

[Odanan]

MasterErrant, on 30 May 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

One of my all time favs. I shudder to think what distortions they are gonna make of it...What'll it be four Hardpoints cause that's what the stock mech has.

4 minimum hardpoints in the primary variant. They will (and must) add more hardpoints to make each variant unique and balanced. Something like that: