21 replies to this topic

[Balfor]

SWO (Sniper Warrior Online) is back.

For a brief Period (2 Days) there was an Antidote to the Jumpsnipermadness, now it´s even worse than before.

5 PPC Stalkers standing on Hilltops, snipering away with all they have, don´t even bothering the 40 LRM fired at them......
Even Medium Mechs can ignore LRM Rain, because the DMG done is laughebale....

I you do not want LRM to be a viable Weapons Choice why don´t you just remove them (along with MG, Flamer, AC-10-LBX, SRM, SSRM etc.) and leave only long-range-Energyweapons in the Game....
The rename it, because it´s not Mechwarrior anymore....

@PGI: Do not change EVERY Value with EVERY Patch...ther is no Way to fix LRM correctly if you do that....


P.S: WHINE, WHINE, WHINE, PPC´s are so OP, WHINE, WHINE, WHINE Poptarts suck so hard, WHINE, WHINE, WHINE.....

[FREDtheDEAD]

Do we need five identical threads to rant over the same topic?

[Dude42]

Xajorkith, on 26 May 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

Do we need five identical threads to rant over the same topic?

Do you have any idea how many "LRM OP OMG I CAN"T PLAY HELP MEEEE!!!!" threads there were? Why are the LRM haters allowed to have a dozen threads, but those in favor of fair and balanced weaponry cannot? I didn't see you posting in any of those threads asking them why they needed so many identical ones. Go home.

Edit: By the way OP, I agree, Point-Click-Win-Poptart4Lyfe is back, with a vengeance.

Edited by Dude42, 26 May 2013 - 06:51 AM.

[Taj]

Better have OP LRM's than PoptartWarrior.... :-/

When LMR get buff ppl began to use covers, flank, braw and think how to kill LRM... and now? back to mindless jump-shot...

[Balfor]

Xajorkith, on 26 May 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

Do we need five identical threads to rant over the same topic?

Yes.....cause like the Anti-LRM-Whiners had Success with 100 identical "nerf-LRM-Threads", it seems to be the only Way to get the Dev´s to look at it...

Dude42, on 26 May 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Do you have any idea how many "LRM OP OMG I CAN"T PLAY HELP MEEEE!!!!" threads there were? Why are the LRM haters allowed to have a dozen threads, but those in favor of fair and balanced weaponry cannot? I didn't see you posting in any of those threads asking them why they needed so many identical ones. Go home.

Edit: By the way OP, I agree, Point-Click-Win-Poptart4Lyfe is back, with a vengeance.

Exactly....

Edited by Balfor, 26 May 2013 - 08:43 AM.

[Wintersdark]

LRM's, for those couple days, where inarguably overpowered, specifically because of the bugged flight path and already known splash damage bug causing them to do too much damage against specific mech chassis. This wasn't an antidote to poptarts - if anything, poptarting was the only viable counter to such LRM boats. The only reason you saw fewer poptarts was because everyone and their dog was running an LRM boat instead - simply because they were broken.

Now, if you calm down a smidge and look at this reasonably, it's not so bad.

It's not LRM HATING POPTARTS AGAINST BALANCED WEAPON LOVERS - that's just silly. Lets all pretend to be grownups here.

Most players want weapons to be balanced, so they are all viable choices. People who like poptarting don't want everyone poptarting, for obvious reasons, and if poptarting is clearly the superior choice everyone does it and nobody has much fun.

Are LRM's somewhat underpowered? Yes. Is that deliberate? No. They were buffed this patch, but were not buffed then immediately nerfed. The hotfixed changes where intended to be in the patch, they simply missed the window and where delayed. The damage buff and splash reduction were intended to go in together, making it a more gradual change. LRM's are absolutely better now than they were before the patch, and are usable if a smidge weak as opposed to being utterly harmless. They had to get the splash damage fix in first before they could make substantial changes, because the splash damage problem severely inflates damage in some cases making damage value changes unpredictable.

The state LRM's are in now is much more conductive to balance changes. Now, they can increase per-missile damage (I predict they'll get a further buff to match their tabletop stats, at 1 damage per missile), without it causing exponential damage increases against mechs with complex geometry.

But, please, keep in mind that LRM's are *NOT* the counter to poptarts. Poptarts, if anything, are the counter to LRM's, because the LRM mech has several substantial disadvantages compared to a poptart. If you're upset with poptarts (a reasonable feeling) then you should be advocating brawling weapon buffs and jump jet shake, as that is what will cut back on poptarting.


---

Why LRM's don't counter poptarts: LRM's require too much time to hit. A poptart can sit safely in cover, pop up, fire at and hit the LRM mech, then fall back into cover before the LRM mech can even get a lock. Even if the LRM mech has a spotter (that the poptart hasn't noticed and gunned down), the poptart will be back in cover before the LRM's get to him.

[Nightcrept]

Wintersdark, on 26 May 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

LRM's, for those couple days, where inarguably overpowered, specifically because of the bugged flight path and already known splash damage bug causing them to do too much damage against specific mech chassis.  This wasn't an antidote to poptarts - if anything, poptarting was the only viable counter to such LRM boats.  The only reason you saw fewer poptarts was because everyone and their dog was running an LRM boat instead - simply because they were broken.

Now, if you calm down a smidge and look at this reasonably, it's not so bad.

It's not LRM HATING POPTARTS AGAINST BALANCED WEAPON LOVERS - that's just silly.  Lets all pretend to be grownups here.

Most players want weapons to be balanced, so they are all viable choices.  People who like poptarting don't want everyone poptarting, for obvious reasons, and if poptarting is clearly the superior choice everyone does it and nobody has much fun.


The state LRM's are in now is much more conductive to balance changes.  Now, they can increase per-missile damage (I predict they'll get a further buff to match their tabletop stats, at 1 damage per missile), without it causing exponential damage increases against mechs with complex geometry.



---

.

I disagree with most of this as most likely most of us do. Lrm's where still laughably weak. I still never died to them and their damage to ton ratio was still pitifully low. The flight path did need to be adjusted but due to their useless damage who cared? And most players where using lrms because everyone was soooo bored of the game without them. It was a fresh change. Many players have shown over and over and over against that they do not like lrms. Period. I can flood you with their past posts saying so directly. So any change that makes them in the least bit competitive will result in QQing. I don't foresee missiles in this game ever becoming useable again.

Edited by Nightcrept, 26 May 2013 - 09:23 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Nightcrept, on 26 May 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

I disagree with most of this as most likely most of us do. Lrm's where still laughably weak. I still never died to them and their damage to ton ratio was still pitifully low. The flight path did need to be adjusted but due to their useless damage who cared? And most players where using lrms because everyone was soooo bored of the game without them. It was a fresh change. Many players have shown over and over and over against that they do not like lrms. Period. I can flood you with their past posts saying so directly. So any change that makes them in the least bit competitive will result in QQing. I don't foresee missiles in this game ever becoming useable again.

Their overall damage was absolutely weak, but due to the splash damage bug they tore through center torsos absurdly quickly. I pulled out a LRM boating Stalker, and laid waste to enemies in ridiculous numbers. I was pulling 4+ kills per match at long range, through cover, and still only getting ~300 damage. But the damage done is irrelevant if you can kill that easily, because damage is worthless, kills are what matter.

That needed to be changed. If they'd raised the damage further while they were still ridiculous centerpunching beasts, people would have been one-shotting mechs with LRM's.

From here, it's just a matter of pushing the damage up to get them properly competitive.

The problem is - and it exists on both "sides of the fence" if you will, ranting posts like those above don't help, they make the situation worse. This is why I'm arguing for people to just calm down and work for a bit more maturity. This is a game, and just not so important as to be worth getting all bent out of shape for, particularly when doing so actively hurts your cause.

A lot of people really don't like LRM's pretty much directly due to the various LRM apocalypses over the course of this games' development: Artemis introduction, when tourmaline was introduced, and now with this one.

Hopefully, with the major bugs addressed, they'll be able to adjust the damage without absurdly broken things happening. This has, to date, made missile balancing extremely difficult. They were always either underpowered or overpowered.

Please understand, I'm a fan of LRM's. I like them, and am personally extremely fond of mounting a single 10 or 15 rack on my mechs. For that to be worthwhile, they need to actually do damage. I *WANT* LRM's to work. So, I do advocate positive change with LRM's(not them being broken with bugs, even if that makes them more competitive), but what I specifically don't do is join in with raving lunatics, because that gets your posts ignored.

Now, I understand people are all ******** about PGI and like to rave on about how they only listen to QQ and whatever else, but that's ridiculous, pointless, and counterproductive. But keep in mind, because people QQ about *everything*, valid or not, any change PGI makes - ANY change - will be interpreted as purely a response to QQ. It doesn't matter what they do, it'll look that way.

[Nightcrept]

Problem I have is that everyone who says lrms are or were op seem to be basing their decision off the ultra boating abilities of the stalker.

As I have said a thousand times now if you balance the ultra boats then the lesser applications become too up.
So how can we fix lrms when their effect becomes exponentially op when boated above 40 tubes.

I have used the same 40 tube lrm boat since I started and I can tell you that it still sucks horribly. It has since the splash damage patch and lrm removal.

[David Sumner]

Balance? I want graphs to prove balance: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2356985 Yeah LRMs got broke. I went from originally doing (very rarely) 1000-1200 dmg in my LRM atlas to doing 400-600 on the same basis. I was fine with that. Then the patch, and it went up to 700-800, knew that couldn't last, but tThat lined up with figures I see every so often for everyone else, so that was OK. Now it's down to 200-300.

[Aslena]

I just got rid of all my lrm's off my stalker dmg went from 200 a match to 500 a match so just get rid of your crappy lrm's and the lrm's are fixed

[Wintersdark]

Nightcrept, on 26 May 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Problem I have is that everyone who says lrms are or were op seem to be basing their decision off the ultra boating abilities of the stalker.

As I have said a thousand times now if you balance the ultra boats then the lesser applications become too up.
So how can we fix lrms when their effect becomes exponentially op when boated above 40 tubes.

I have used the same 40 tube lrm boat since I started and I can tell you that it still sucks horribly. It has since the splash damage patch and lrm removal.

The stalker I used was not a silly ultraboat, it was 2 ALRM20's. That's a lot, granted, but not outside a Catapult's ability.

But the reality is that you need to balance around what can be done, at least to an extent. LRM's are complicated because of indirect fire - if one person can fire at you, chances are most of the enemy team can as a result. This leads to a perception of overpoweredness, because focus fire happens very easily; even when most of the enemy team can't see you.

It's a difficult point to balance around.

[Mystere]

I disappear for a month or so and all I see is this constant:

Whine! Whine! Whine! <some exaggeration> Whine! Whine! Whine!


People seem to overlook the fact that the game is still under development and as such is still undergoing changes and balancing.

Here's a suggestion. If you don't like the game, start your own kickstarter project and build your own game. I wish you the best of luck. I, on the other hand, will be patient while PGI works out the issues, and if need be give some constructive suggestions free of all this whining.

And don't bother replying as I'm exiling myself from the forums again. These forums are just as toxic, if not more so, than the other gaming forums I used to visit until I also got tired of them. I'll just vote with my wallet and either play this game or not depending on what I think of it.

Edited by Mystere, 26 May 2013 - 02:37 PM.

[Aslena]

Mystere, on 26 May 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

I disappear for a month or so and all I see is this constant:

Whine! Whine! Whine! <some exaggeration> Whine! Whine! Whine!


People seem to overlook the fact that the game is still under development and as such is still undergoing changes and balancing.

Here's a suggestion. If you don't like the game, start your own kickstarter project and build your own game. I wish you the best of luck. I, on the other hand, will be patient while PGI works out the issues, and if need be give some constructive suggestions free of all this whining.

And don't bother replying as I'm exiling myself from the forums again.

this game is under development is the main reason for expressing opinions if nobody gives feedback to what they've seen what's the point of these forums

[FREDtheDEAD]

*deleted* I can't be bothered with this rubbish.

Edited by Xajorkith, 26 May 2013 - 04:30 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Taj, on 26 May 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

Better have OP LRM's than PoptartWarrior.... :-/

When LMR get buff ppl began to use covers, flank, braw (brawl) and think how to kill LRM... and now? back to mindless jump-shot...

Are people not able to do the same thing against poptarts? You are speaking about getting close enough to bring your medium/short range weapons to bare and to overcome a poptart that is fielding only 3-4 weapons at most?

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 26 May 2013 - 04:20 PM.

[Nightcrept]

Tarl Cabot, on 26 May 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

Are people not able to do the same thing against poptarts?  You are speaking about getting close enough to bring your medium/short range weapons to bare and to overcome a poptart that is fielding only 3-4 weapons at most?

No they aren't. The poptarts are in mass and generally using gauss and or ppcs. Perhaps if the min range of ppcs was 180 and dealt no dmg below that then yes. And if the srms dealt a decent amount of dmg. But as is, you close while getting pelted then when you turn the ridge to brawl you get a mass blast to the face of ppcs from the entire team of ppc poptarters.

[Wintersdark]

Nightcrept, on 26 May 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

No they aren't. The poptarts are in mass and generally using gauss and or ppcs. Perhaps if the min range of ppcs was 180 and dealt no dmg below that then yes. And if the srms dealt a decent amount of dmg. But as is, you close while getting pelted then when you turn the ridge to brawl you get a mass blast to the face of ppcs from the entire team of ppc poptarters.

And this is why the poptarting meta sucks so much. The poptarts can deal substantial damage at range, and make excellent use of cover to protect themselves while they do it. Then, when the short range mechs get close, all battered from the long range fire.... Oh look, their brawling weapons are generally inferior at brawling than the gauss rifles and PPC's being brought to bear on them by the relatively undamaged poptarting Heavies and Assaults.

I've done that countless times with my HGN poptart (one of my three is a dedicated poptart) - deal heavy damage at range while Atlases and such close, then at close range, with comparable (when undamaged) armor and massive weaponry go toe to toe and rip them apart... then fall back and return to poptarting safely when damaged.

Though that's why brawling weapons in general need a buff. They were very dominant before because we only had tiny maps, with the Caldera being the largest. Now, with another Caldera sized map and two huge ones, that's no longer the case. Given that, the SRM's and Medium Lasers definitely need a buff IMHO (More damage and less heat, respectively)

Edited by Wintersdark, 26 May 2013 - 07:27 PM.

[Asmosis]

dont touch the ML!

thats like the only pefectly balanced weapon ingame right now. SRM's have nerfed damage currently (down to 1.5 from 2.5) and the only reason for that reduction was the splash bug, once thats sorted they *should* increase damage back to 2.5. LRM's dont need to go back to the previous 1.7 due to the speed increase, but do need to come up from 0.9

If/when we get masc that may balance brawlers on large maps, but until then you either need to rely on team mates to provide covering fire for you to close, or the map/mech selection thing that PGI is working on.

[Aslena]

Asmosis, on 26 May 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:

If/when we get masc that may balance brawlers on large maps, but until then you either need to rely on team mates to provide covering fire for you to close, or the map/mech selection thing that PGI is working on.

If MASC is required for brawlers were in trouble as it is VERY unreliable.

Rules for it in tabletop are as follows:

<sup>Game Rules

For Inner Sphere 'Mechs, MASC takes up a number of critical spots equal to a 'Mech's tonnage divided by 20, rounded up, and an equal tonnage. For Clan 'Mechs, MASC takes up a number of critical spots equal to a 'Mech's tonnage divided by 25, rounded up, and an equal tonnage. MASC is a single piece of equipment, unlike Endo Steel or Ferro-Fibrous armor, and the critical spaces must be allocated to a single location. Destruction of that location or a critical hit to the MASC will destroy the equipment.

When a player first activates MASC, they roll 2D6. On a result of 3+, the MASC operates normally. On a 2, the 'Mechs leg actuators freeze up, immobilizing them for the rest of the game. The second consecutive turn MASC is used, the target number increases by two, to 5. On the third turn, it increases to 7, and so on. If a player ceases to use MASC for one turn, the target number is reduced by one. So if a player uses MASC on consecutive turns, does not use it on turn 3, then wishes to use it on turn 4, his target number will be 4. If ever the target number isn't reached on a roll, the 'Mech is immobilized.

When its successfully activated, the MASC allows the unit to run at double its standard walking speed (adjusted for modifiers such as damaged leg actuators, etc.) for that turn. Though obviously unreliable if used continuously, if used wisely it can have a devastating effect in combat.</sup>