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Why Do People Want Wimpy Weapons?


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#21 FupDup

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 03:59 PM

View PostEl Bandito, on 28 May 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:


AMS and Torso twist goes a long way. And in MWO you can to those.

Torso twist doesn't do $#!t unless your mech has huge arms and/or a small CT. AMS doesn't help in point-blank range.

Edited by FupDup, 28 May 2013 - 03:59 PM.


#22 xRaeder

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 04:01 PM

View PostGeneral Taskeen, on 28 May 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

In MW:LL I use jump jets and approach an enemy at lateral angles... oh this is MWO, where you can't do that. My bad.


I've said for over a year that MW:LL is a better game.

#23 3Xtr3m3

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 04:04 PM

Why wimpy weapons? Simple.

I love a good pillow fight.

True Story

#24 El Bandito

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 04:07 PM

View PostFupDup, on 28 May 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

Torso twist doesn't do $#!t unless your mech has huge arms and/or a small CT. AMS doesn't help in point-blank range.


There lies the problem. Why are you riding a mech with huge CT (which is widely acknowledged as liability--not just against SSRMs) and hugging the SSRM carrier? Unless you are a Catapult or a Stalker with SSRM2s of your own, that's just bad play. Dragons, Jenners, Cicadas...should know their weakness and stay away.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 May 2013 - 04:10 PM.


#25 FupDup

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 04:09 PM

View PostEl Bandito, on 28 May 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

There lies the problem. Why are you riding a mech with huge CT (which is widely acknowledged as liability--not just against SSRMs) and hugging the SSRM carrier?

You're assuming that I was describing the mech that I'm driving. I was describing the kind of mech being driven by the guy on the other side of my guns. As for hugging, most heavies and assaults can't choose to run away.

#26 Asmudius Heng

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 04:10 PM

Nerfs can be fine - balance is not always about increase.

However the bigger question is 'Why do people want fights to last longer'

The reason for this is that the feeling of slowly picking apart an enemy if fun. Having your mech slowly die around you is exciting as you try to fight back.

Weapons being so powerful means that pilots tend to end matches and fights quickly via well aimed CT shots. Nothing wrong with that, but if it is too easy to do, then you do not get the aforementioned feelings of big machines being dented and systems being destroyed slowly.

The challenge has always been about killing efficiently and that is a skill, but might be too easy now - this is not really a weapon damage issue it is a pinpoint damage issue.

I think this is compounded by the fact you dont really have a reason to shoot at different parts of a mech - since random shots are not in the game, you need a reason to shoot for anything other than CT.

So its not about nerfing or buffing - it is about the overall idea of the game design and the mechanics of how that is implemented.

#27 El Bandito

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 04:12 PM

View PostFupDup, on 28 May 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

You're assuming that I was describing the mech that I'm driving. I was describing the kind of mech being driven by the guy on the other side of my guns. As for hugging, most heavies and assaults can't choose to run away.


Then that's their problem. As for most heavies and assaults with huge CTs--Catapults mostly boat SSRM2s or AC20s and can fight back easily. Dragons run fast enough to get back to his teammates for help. Awesomes have huge arms for blocking SSRMs. You don't wanna even mess with a PPC/SSRM2 Stalker.

#28 Sprouticus

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 08:13 AM

View PostVictor Morson, on 28 May 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:


I entirely and absolutely disagree. During the LRM apocalypse, do you know what happened? The game slowed down. It became more strategic. You had to move your lance cover-to-cover in order to keep your head down. Hell, for a period brawlers even came back because they were absolutely devastating at hunting LRM boats.

The typical game length went from about 6 minutes to about 14 minutes during this time. It was a massive improvement to the pace and all thanks to highly damaging weapons.



So PGI's ideal pacing is to nerf long range missiles, close range missiles and all ACs so that everyone is forced to ridge with snipers? If that's their idea of pacing whoever is responsible for their pacing should be replaced in the role.

EDIT: Also, call me paranoid, but I am doubly against nerfs because once something is nerf'ed PGI will take about 6 months to throw it a tiny fix. That is why we need a hell of a lot more people calling for buffs right now.



First, where we agree:

Yes, PGI takes too long and makes buffs in very small ammounts while making nerfs in much larger jumps. I totally agree that this needs to be addressed. I am hoping the test server environment coming up (in June?) helps them do tuning on weapons more quickly.


As for your other statements:

While the LRM game DID make people more aware of cover, and helped with close ranged mechs, that was at the expense of LR direct fire weapons becoming far less useful. Both pacing and gameplay are important. I don't want a game where you can stand in the open for 2 minutes and not be hurt. I also don't want a game where 2-3 well placed alphas takes out your mech. Where one mistake kills you every time. I also don't want a game that plays like a traditional FPS. Mechs should be able to take a beating. I would prefer to balance in other ways (weapons spread, etc), but PGI has shown they will not look at those options, so damage, range, and heat are our only options.

In the end, the AVERAGE player should be able to last X amount of time exposed to enemy fire (where X is determined by PGI, but lets say roughly 15-60 seconds)

You want the survivability to mean that brawlers can close and be relatively unscathed if they did it well and used cover. If they ran across 750m of open ground at 60 kph to close they should be VERY hurt or dead.

You want LRM mechs to be able to survive in a solo manner, do good damage (not not great) alone, and do great damage when combined with a spotter or direct firing with TAG.

You want LR direct fire mechs to be able to severely damage a brawler who gives them free shots or an LRM mech standing in the open, but be at a disadvantage when facing that same brawler up close.


Believe it or not, I think we are fairly close to this right now. LR Gauss/PPC's are still a wee bit too powerful. LRM's are a wee bit too weak. The mid range game (UAC5 and LL) might need a little love, but I will withhold judgement on that until other changes are in place. Short range mechs will be helped indirectly by good LRM fire, and perhaps by raising the max speed available for light mechs to allow for better scouting and spotting.

#29 RG Notch

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 08:19 AM

View PostxRaeder, on 28 May 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:


I've said for over a year that MW:LL is a better game.

So go play, I see development there is going great. :P

#30 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 08:30 AM

View PostVictor Morson, on 28 May 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

The only people calling for nerfs are:

* People who are sick of fighting high-alpha assaults (blaming the alpha and not the fact 6/8 'mechs are over 85 tons)
* People sick of getting owned with PPCs and Gauss while their weapons of choice feel like BB guns - again, the fault of the weak guns, not the working ones.

We need buffs. A lot of buffs. ACTUAL buffs, that don't come with hidden nerfs. I still can't believe they turned ANYTHING down on the machine gun while buffing it.

* But the game is a combat game.
* Then People need to use more long range weapons to fight against PPCs and Gauss.

Making shot range weapons more powerful will not get them into range. My AC20 does not feel like a BB gun BUT it does come up a little short if I have to run up to a PPC boat.

Just saying if you are getting killed at range a more powerful knife won't help.

#31 LordBraxton

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 08:43 AM

THE ONE STEP SOLUTION

BUFF SRMS

FIX EVERYTHING

#32 topgun505

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 08:58 AM

Considering how many times I have witnessed undamaged light and medium mechs getting ONE-SHOTTED despite having double the armor of TT I don't blame them.

The issue however is not the weapons.

The problem is the heat shutdown threshold is set too high thus allowing these high alpha builds being viable

View PostXeven, on 28 May 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

Why do people want wimpy weapons? Mech battles have always been fast and furious so why all the crying to nurf everything? Can you imagine what it would be like with TT armor?


#33 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:03 AM

The alternative to wimpy weapons is wimpy mechs.

"Oh, look, m y Atlas got one-shotted again. Really an impressive 100 ton practice target"...

The goal is to have weapons balanced against each other, so that no weapon is simply superior, and to have a game pace that seems befitting to a Battletech game.

Just a tiny bit - MW:O has hit locations. Most shooters probably only distinguish between head and body. MW:O distinginguishes between head, center torso, left torso, right torso, left arm, right arm, left leg and right leg. IF the game is too fast, the meaning of these details is irrelevant. We don't need these many hit locations if a mech is destroyed after 3 alphas.

#34 Nicholas Carlyle

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:10 AM

Too the people who said they don't like nerfs because it takes 6 months to fix it if it's overnerfed....that is not a problem with nerfs...that's a problem with the dev's development cycle and their speed.

Nerfs are fine, sometimes they need to happen.

Same thing with buffs.

But the main thing is things need to be done in a timely manner.

SRMs/LRM's have been the most glaring example of this.

It's amazing.

#35 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:13 AM

View PostRG Notch, on 29 May 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

So go play, I see development there is going great. :P


Evil tongues claim that MW:LL has seen better improvements than MW:O in the past few months.

#36 Kraven Kor

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:38 AM

View PostVictor Morson, on 28 May 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:


So PGI's ideal pacing is to nerf long range missiles, close range missiles and all ACs so that everyone is forced to ridge with snipers? If that's their idea of pacing whoever is responsible for their pacing should be replaced in the role.

EDIT: Also, call me paranoid, but I am doubly against nerfs because once something is nerf'ed PGI will take about 6 months to throw it a tiny fix. That is why we need a hell of a lot more people calling for buffs right now.


I just want to point out that what PGI intends, and how we respond are two different things.

I don't know what their intent is, so far as this is concerned, but I do know that no matter what they do, we will most likely figure out another way to get the same results as we have now. The meta and favored builds will shift and the forum insanity will continue.

Not arguing for or against your point, but rather stating that sorting out PGI's intent vs. our own shenanigans is likely not simple.





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