54 replies to this topic

[Turook]

Before anyone missreads and start making idiotic comments, please understand that this thread only concerns Direct Fireweapons. This has nothing to do with LRM's SRM's or Streaks and while you may say SRM's are direct fire, they don't all hit the same location on the target so they are being discarded as pertinent.

This topic has been talked about many many times and as yet I don't believe any consensus has been reached.
With LRM's being fixed? now and constrictions slowly being placed on poptarts, I still believe the question needs to be answered.
Within my company's dealing with other units, when the no cheese builds in a drop has been mentioned there has been some chatter as to what one really is.
I believe I have come up with an answer.

A cheese build will be any Mech that deals 40 or more points of damage with combined direct fire weapons in the concerned weapons overlapping max range bracket.

List of Weapons
Name..........Max Range....Damage
......................Bracket
S Laser..........90-180............3
S P Laser.......90-180...........3
M P Laser.....180-360...........5
M Laser.........270-540..........6
L P Laser......300-600.........10
L Laser..........450-900..........9
PPC..............540-1080........10
ER LLaser....675-1350.........9
ER PPC........810-1620........10

MG...............120-240..........0.8
AC10...........450-1350.........10
AC20............270-810..........20
LBX10..........540-1620 (only included for point blank use, Possibly excluded due to shotgun effect)
UAC5...........600-1800..........5
AC5.............620-1700..........5
GR...............660-1980.........15
AC2.............720-2160..........2

Examples
7xMLasers and 2xSLasers are not cheese, the Maxrange bracket for the MLasers is 270-540, the SLasers Maxrange bracket is 90-180, the two brackets do not overlap.

3xPPC are not cheese, 3xPPC and a Gauss rifle is.

4 Large Lasers are not cheese, 5 or more is.

An AC20 and 2xERPPC's are not a cheese build, the two weapon types have different working ranges, even tho if you close to short range the oponent can still Alpha you for 40 (technically this is borderline as the max range on the AC20 is 810 and 810 is where the ER PPC starts it's max range).

Note: the HBK-4P, if you replace the SLaser with a MLaser, becomes a cheese build, but shutting down after two alpha strikes at such a close range will get laughed at by many

Final say.
If you wish to flame on and call me a wimp because I am scared of fighting against Mechs that can alpha 40 or more damage, feel free. This is something that many people do want to have discussed as they hate being forced to play against Mechs that take no skill to pilot. Building a Mech that is effective at various ranges is what the Devs tried to encourage by putting in a range of both small and large maps and thats what this definition encourages. For those of you that wish to discuss the whole thing further please give feedback. I am not entirely happy with the way I have worded it and am still looking for a final version that isn't confusing.

[FupDup]

My own personal definition of a "cheese" build is something that requires a relatively low amount of skill to utilize yet is incredibly powerful even against players of greater skill. In other words, something with a very low skill floor. Low risk, high-reward.

[Aslena]

at max range weapons do very little damage optimum range would be the only way to compare weapons unless you want to do a LOT of math... IE: Gauss Rifle with a 660m range would do:

full 15 damage up to 660m
gradual linear dropoff to 7.5 damage at 1320m
gradual linear dropoff to 0 damage beyond 1980m

[Turook]

FupDup, yes you are correct.
What you will find if you apply my definition is it takes those mechs out. IE the dual AC20 Mechs and the 6 ERPPC Mechs.
Little skill to pilot and it only takes a lucky hit to kill most Mechs in one salvo.

Aslena, I originally looked at a more complicated equasion for this definition and it got way too hard way too quick.
Most people mainly are concerned about the dual AC20 and 4 or more PPC Mechs. This definition covered them at their effective range even tho we are talking their Maxrange bracket. This is the bit I am not happy about, but the moment you have the same definition and talk about the effective range bracket instead, you make too many builds cheese. I am fairly sure no one sees a 4 Medium Laser and 2 ER Large Laser build as cheese, but it can pump out 40dam at point blank range.

I tried to keep the whole definition as simple as possible while making sure the main offenders were covered without getting too stupid about it.

Edited by Turook, 28 May 2013 - 05:50 PM.

[Victor Morson]

There are no cheese build 'mechs.

There are cheese build teams.

When 6+ people are running assaults, something is wrong. Assaults should not be the most common 'mech on the field and is solely responsible for every single competent player having access to these high alpha designs.

They would not, again, be a problem if there were less assaults on the battlefield.

[One Medic Army]

FupDup, on 28 May 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

My own personal definition of a "cheese" build is something that requires a relatively low amount of skill to utilize yet is incredibly powerful even against players of greater skill. In other words, something with a very low skill floor. Low risk, high-reward.

Agreed, any build where the reward is disproportionately high for the risk incurred is cheese.
The old Raven-3L ECM+Streak days when a Raven could kill or run with much more ease than those who were fighting him could kill or drive off.
High-concentrated-alpha mechs which spend 90% or more of the game behind cover.
Streakcats which used explosion induced blindness to escape return fire (in ye olden days).

[cyberFluke]

Victor Morson, on 28 May 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

There are no cheese build 'mechs.

There are cheese build teams.

When 6+ people are running assaults, something is wrong. Assaults should not be the most common 'mech on the field and is solely responsible for every single competent player having access to these high alpha designs.

They would not, again, be a problem if there were less assaults on the battlefield.

The CTF-3D poptart would like a word. The Dual AC/20 is next in the queue, with the Streak Cat w/BAP right behind him. All cheese by my definition, and non-assaults to boot.

To clarify: Cheese is something that exploits the game's unintentional weaknesses to gain easy kills/wins.

Edited by cyberFluke, 28 May 2013 - 05:54 PM.

[White Bear 84]

One Medic Army, on 28 May 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

High-concentrated-alpha mechs which spend 90% or more of the game behind cover.

I think you just classed poptarts as cheesbuilds

Edit: Should comment that technically speaking and this could be a reason for debate, but dual gauss jagers are actually canon therefore should not be considered a cheese build...

Edited by White Bear 84, 28 May 2013 - 07:55 PM.

[cyberFluke]

White Bear 84, on 28 May 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

I think you just classed poptarts as cheesbuilds

Edit: Should comment that technically speaking and this could be a reason for debate, but dual gauss jagers are actually canon therefore should not be considered a cheese build...

True, but by the same canon rules it's chances of coring a non-assault from behind in one shot are incredible, not regular.

[Khanahar]

Obligatory PSA:

Cheese is a strategy that is easy to counter if you know how to, and will always lose against a prepared player, but is very strong against an unprepared or unaware player. It relies on the incompetence of the other player to succeed.

Viable builds are not necessarily cheese builds. Cheese builds include the AC/40 Jager or Boomcat or Splatapult, as generally used. This is no dishonor on them, but is merely descriptive.

Also, by your definition, the AS7-D...the least cheesy build in all BT... is a cheese build.

[The Cheese]

Khanahar, on 28 May 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

Cheese is a strategy that is easy to counter if you know how to, and will always lose against a prepared player, but is very strong against an unprepared or unaware player. It relies on the incompetence of the other player to succeed.

Viable builds are not necessarily cheese builds. Cheese builds include the AC/40 Jager or Boomcat or Splatapult, as generally used. This is no dishonor on them, but is merely descriptive.

I think MWO cheese deviates a little from the standard definition. MWO cheese is usually declared when the cheesemech in question is utilising intentional game mechanics to excel to a degree that was not intended by the game designers.

Spoiler

I don't want to say exploiting, but that's what it is.

None of the builds I've seen called "cheese" really fit the description above.

Edited by The Cheese, 28 May 2013 - 09:49 PM.

[Brilig]

One Medic Army, on 28 May 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

Streakcats which used explosion induced blindness to escape return fire (in ye olden days).

Do the constant hits not obscure vision anymore?

[One Medic Army]

Brilig, on 28 May 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

Do the constant hits not obscure vision anymore?

They still do as I understand it, but they deal a lot less damage now, only dangerous in packs.

[Brilig]

One Medic Army, on 28 May 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:

They still do as I understand it, but they deal a lot less damage now, only dangerous in packs.

That's a shame. Way back when they were murdering everything I thought there was a post saying they were going to tone down the missile explosion effect.

[The Cheese]

Brilig, on 28 May 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

That's a shame. Way back when they were murdering everything I thought there was a post saying they were going to tone down the missile explosion effect.

They did.

[One Medic Army]

The Cheese, on 28 May 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

They did.

They cut the knock, but not the visual obscuration.

[Ralgas]

I'd rate it at anything that accurately throws out more than 35 dmg in 1 click, or protects the user disproportionately from taking return fire.

I'm well aware that throws half the builds in the game atm under the bus, but if it wasn't possible things would be a lot more interesting out there

Edit: That said i'm running a 3xlbx 2ml muromet brawler atm. whats the verdict?

Edited by Ralgas, 28 May 2013 - 10:31 PM.

[Lefty Lucy]

There's no such thing as a cheese build.

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 28 May 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

My own personal definition of a "cheese" build is something that requires a relatively low amount of skill to utilize yet is incredibly powerful even against players of greater skill. In other words, something with a very low skill floor. Low risk, high-reward.

Dual AC20 all the way, baby.

[El Bandito]

Ralgas, on 28 May 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

I'd rate it at anything that accurately throws out more than 35 dmg in 1 click, or protects the user disproportionately from taking return fire. I'm well aware that throws half the builds in the game atm under the bus, but if it wasn't possible things would be a lot more interesting out there Edit: That said i'm running a 3xlbx 2ml muromet brawler atm. whats the verdict?

LBX is joke so it's not cheese even if you put 3 of them in a mech.