37 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

It seems at least for the MG, the projectile speed is just for the animation, not the effect. Strange thing...

[Pixelmancer]

The Cheese, on 29 May 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

I was under the impression that MGs work the same way as lasers (ie; hitscan instead of in-game model) and that the MG fire we see on screen is just for graphical effect. That's why they were included in the laser HSR patch, but not noted in the ballistics HSR patch.

This thread notes that the machine gun falls under the same weapon mechanic as a laser:
http://mwomercs.com/...rewind-phase-1/

Ballistics list is here:
http://mwomercs.com/...s-state-rewind/

What I'm getting at here is that the speed of 100 is just for the graphics. The damage mechanic itself is actually an instant hit.

Those posts are about server side lag compensation and neither one says anything about machine guns being hitscan.

[The Cheese]

Pixelmancer, on 29 May 2013 - 02:17 AM, said:

Those posts are about server side lag compensation and neither one says anything about machine guns being hitscan.

Trace fire is hitscan.

[DerSpecht]

Rudugar, on 29 May 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

They're 100 meters per second. That's 6000 meters per minute. That's 360,000 meters per hour which is 360 km/h. The fastest mech is 152.7 km/h. How fast do you need these bullets to be?

Average speed of a nato 5,56 bullet is ~900m/s. Is you only argument really "Its faster than a mech"?

[Rudugar]

DerSpecht, on 29 May 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

Average speed of a nato 5,56 bullet is ~900m/s. Is you only argument really "Its faster than a mech"?

My argument was the illusion that it was slower than a mech over 100km/h. The speed isn't acceptable if it was the actual speed, but it's not. The actual speed is instant. It's like a laser. Enjoy.

Edited by Rudugar, 29 May 2013 - 03:03 AM.

[DerSpecht]

Rudugar, on 29 May 2013 - 03:03 AM, said:

My argument was the illusion that it was slower than a mech over 100km/h. The speed isn't acceptable if it was the actual speed, but it's not. The actual speed is instant. It's like a laser. Enjoy.

Actually it is not. Its a hybrid of hitscan and ballistics. Try using MGs at max range on a light circling you. You will realise what i mean.

[The Cheese]

DerSpecht, on 29 May 2013 - 03:10 AM, said:

Actually it is not. Its a hybrid of hitscan and ballistics. Try using MGs at max range on a light circling you. You will realise what i mean.

Can you describe what you mean by "a hybrid of hitscan and ballistics"? I was under the impression that hitscan and non-hitscan functions were mutually exclusive.

Are you referring to the technique where a tiny amount of lag is coded into the weapon's function to give the effect of a bullet's travel time? That's still hitscan. It's still a traced line from point A to point B, where a hit is registered if a target intersects that line.

Edited by The Cheese, 29 May 2013 - 03:19 AM.

[DerSpecht]

And what if the weapon has a cone of fire?

I think we need a clear definition of the word hitscan. Guess i dont quite get it Oo

[The Cheese]

DerSpecht, on 29 May 2013 - 03:22 AM, said:

And what if the weapon has a cone of fire?

I think we need a clear definition of the word hitscan. Guess i dont quite get it Oo

If the weapon as a cone of fire, the traced lines are still going from point A to point B, but the point B is (for the sake of the example) a randomised point within the diameter of the cone's base, with the base being the weapon's maximum possible spred at maximum range.

[DerSpecht]

The Cheese, on 29 May 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:

If the weapon as a cone of fire, the traced lines are still going from point A to point B, but the point B is (for the sake of the example) a randomised point within the diameter of the cone's base, with the base being the weapon's maximum possible spred at maximum range.

Ok so every weapon in the game is hitscan. Whatever. Still the MG does definately NOT behave like a laser.

[The Cheese]

DerSpecht, on 29 May 2013 - 03:26 AM, said:

Ok so every weapon in the game is hitscan. Whatever. Still the MG does definately NOT behave like a laser.

No. Only lasers, flamers and MGs are hitscan. All other weapons use an in-game model whose behaviour defines how the weapon acts.

Think of the weaving of an LRM, and how it can actually go around terrain or mechs. Hitscan can't handle anything but a straight line, but the LRM model that is spawned when you fire them off has its own behaviour programmed into it, allowing it to weave and track a locked enemy without hitting things it looks like it should have cleared, or being unaffected by things that it looks like it hit.

For the machine gun, think of it like a pulse laser that fires each pulse at random points within a circle instead of all at exactly the same place.. That's how it works.

Edited by The Cheese, 29 May 2013 - 03:40 AM.

[DerSpecht]

The Cheese, on 29 May 2013 - 03:31 AM, said:

No. Only lasers, flamers and MGs are hitscan. All other weapons use an in-game model whose behaviour defines how the weapon acts.

Think of the weaving of an LRM, and how it can actually go around terrain or mechs. Hitscan can't handle anything but a straight line, but the LRM model that is spawned when you fire them off has its own behaviour programmed into it, allowing it to weave and track a locked enemy without hitting things it looks like it should have cleared, or being unaffected by things that it looks like it hit.

For the machine gun, think of it like a pulse laser that fires each pulse at random points within a circle instead of all at exactly the same place.. That's how it works.

No.. still dont get it. How can they be hitscan if they have travel time?

[OneEyed Jack]

The problem is with trying to interpret a hit scan weapon graphically, without a solid beam. If it's graphically instant, as an accurate representation, the player can't see it at all. If it's slow enough to be visible, then it's too slow to be accurate.

DerSpecht, on 29 May 2013 - 03:52 AM, said:

No.. still dont get it. How can they be hitscan if they have travel time?

There is no travel time. Non-hitscan weapons create a physical object in game that travels along the designated path. MGs are ballistic in terms of ammo and hardpoints, but they are act like pulsing lasers with a cone of fire in combat. The bullets are only graphics and not physical objects.

[Kmieciu]

1) Equip machineguns:
2) Open fire at a target 199 meters away
3) Observe the paper doll immediately flashing, even before the "bullets" hit the target
4) Profit


That means MGs work like a continuous beam damage-spreading laser. A bit like a tanning lamp.
Although a tanning lamp is way more deadly!

Edited by Kmieciu, 29 May 2013 - 04:16 AM.

[Thorqemada]

When the Laser-HSR was implemented PGI also stated that it will affect MGs to bcs they are too "Trace" weapons (also Flamers).
The "Visual Effect" of MGs is nothing than fluff and projectile speed does not matter.

PPC on the other hand count as Ballistic Weapon (like Gauss and ACs).

Edited by Thorqemada, 29 May 2013 - 07:48 AM.

[PerfectTommy]

Victor Morson, on 29 May 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

Fascinating. Well, it's looking like this might not be the cause of MG failure after all.

Well, it probably isn't helping if a player does not realize his MGs are hitscan and he tries to lead his target based on the visual information of the bullet flight paths.


-PT

[stjobe]

Just chiming in to add that I long ago have confirmed to my own satisfaction that MGs are implemented in the same way as lasers, and that the in-game gfx are just that, some mostly unrelated graphic effects.

As Kmieciu explained above, this is easily (a 5-minute test) seen in the testing grounds, and if that isn't enough evidence, others have pointed out that MGs got HSR in phase 1 with the other energy weapons.

Why was it implemented this way? My guess is that they ran into trouble with the RoF of the MG as a ballistic weapon, and decided to redo it as a laser, hiding the fact with some pretty graphics (which, as PerfectTommy points out, are actually misleading too the player).

[UrbatOrbi]

mg is a prob
it must be weak
so all 1000 infights 1 killbetter no mgs in battle

Edited by UrbatOrbi, 29 May 2013 - 07:10 AM.