68 replies to this topic

[Und3rSc0re]

Lies in battlefield you can support and make tons of kills if you can do both you get more xp than just supporting. So are you wanting assist, spotting, and ecm bonuses? That sounds like it will help ddc players more than mediums and lights. How do you reward brawling and skirmishing? I think we should leave it to weapon balancing to make brawling more viable rather than throw cbills into peoples faces running a 270 m range build. Why should assist bonuses reward more than kills? Spotting isnt good for anything except the teams map awareness and a lrm lock. Which any assault or heavy can do just as well as a light, hell most of the time in my 4ppc phract i can scout just as well as the lights do. There are no ammo, medics or any other support in mwo so you can stop comparing battlefields roles from there.

Edited by Und3rSc0re, 29 May 2013 - 10:21 PM.

[slide]

Und3rSc0re, on 29 May 2013 - 09:57 PM, said:

Scouting will never make more than pure carrying in any game period. Thats why you have never ran into a game where scouts get paid the most bank huh?

Which is why something has to be done to limit Assault warrior online.

R&R, drop limits, scouting bonuses, whatever works!

[Und3rSc0re]

slide, on 29 May 2013 - 10:20 PM, said:

Which is why something has to be done to limit Assault warrior online.

R&R, drop limits, scouting bonuses, whatever works!

Look the light player base is fine right now, no one is going to play a medium for scouting bonuses. Drop limits wont work unless 1. there is a healthy playerbase of mediums 2. solve the problem of excess assaults and heavys sitting in que for 9 minutes straight "telling them to run lower weight mechs will cause mass forum hysteria"

Else with drop limit will have a couple of really balanced weight matches then lop in assault only game or heavy only game instead of them waiting in que for 9 minutes which will also cause qq again.

[Pater Mors]

Und3rSc0re, on 29 May 2013 - 10:20 PM, said:

Lies in battlefield you can support and make tons of kills if you can do both you get more xp than just supporting.

That is literally what I just said...?

If you perform your role you'll get more xp than straight killing.

Tekadept, on 29 May 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

BF3 is a bad example for roles, Yes there are roles and you do get rewarded for that role, but People spam the **** outta them at the detriment of the team and say hey its my role.. and that is an even worse game for unbalanced weapons (At least it was when I last played it 8mths ago)

The example stands that Battlefields system is far better at supporting role warfare than MWO's regardless of how much it's abused by the actual players (because any system will be exploited by some) or how badly the weapons are balanced (I don't recall that much imbalance).

At least in BF there are incentives to perform your role and not just march in a blob to each point and shoot at each other from behind cover.

Edited by Pater Mors, 29 May 2013 - 10:35 PM.

[FupDup]

Und3rSc0re, on 29 May 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

Look the light player base is fine right now...

All 11% of them.

http://mwomercs.com/...19#entry2220919


Keep in mind this data was collected prior to ballistic HSR and non-premium Highlanders (during 3050 weekend challenge, Heavy Metal release time frame).

[Und3rSc0re]

Pater Mors, on 29 May 2013 - 10:33 PM, said:

That is literally what I just said...?

Im gonna point you back to this quote

Und3rSc0re, on 29 May 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

What LOL OMG this is genius now i can scout in my atlas making big bank while i mow down 5 guys this is so gud.

Again how is making "scouting" bonuses going to drive up medium use.

[Pater Mors]

Und3rSc0re, on 29 May 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

Im gonna point you back to this quote



Again how is making "scouting" bonuses going to drive up medium use.

Mediums generally aren't scouts? Mediums are skirmishers/brawlers/scout hunters?

You need to stop putting words in my mouth.

[Und3rSc0re]

FupDup, on 29 May 2013 - 10:34 PM, said:

All 11% of them.

http://mwomercs.com/...19#entry2220919


Keep in mind this data was collected prior to ballistic HSR and non-premium Highlanders (during 3050 weekend challenge, Heavy Metal release time frame).

hammerreborn, on 26 May 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Seeing over 2/3rds of players are in either heavies or assaults as of my last data collection, it's going to be roughly 4-5 heavies, 4-5 assaults, 2-3 mediums, and 1-2 lights


I suspect that lights and medium populations are going to drop even further instead when 12v12 is released as you're just not going to able to walk anywhere as a light without being seismiced, then streaked to death.

I would say 2 lights per team in 12v12 is fairly acceptable.

Pater Mors, on 29 May 2013 - 10:42 PM, said:

Mediums generally aren't scouts? Mediums are skirmishers/brawlers/scout hunters?

You need to stop putting words in my mouth.

Skirmisher? brawler? scout hunter? no lights can hunt lights way better than mediums, assaults and heavys can brawl much better than mediums, streakcat A1 is a straight up light killer on legs, thats a heavy btw. Anything in mwo can skirmish... It does not have to be a medium.

Edited by Und3rSc0re, 29 May 2013 - 10:48 PM.

[Ralgas]

Reload still unfairly affects ballistic/missile builds, and repair encourages tankier builds to hill hump instead of take some attention so the other classes can do their job.

Net result to gameplay will be striving to even faster "kill" builds (see ppc/ac/40 builds atm) and trench warfare as everyone is afraid of getting shot.

Edited by Ralgas, 29 May 2013 - 10:52 PM.

[Pater Mors]

Und3rSc0re, on 29 May 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:

Skirmisher? brawler? scout hunter? no lights can hunt lights way better than mediums, assaults and heavys can brawl much better than mediums, streakcat A1 is a straight up light killer on legs, thats a heavy btw. Anything in mwo can skirmish... It does not have to be a medium.

Putting words in my mouth again. I never said it had to be a medium. Mediums make very effective light killers. I've been playing one since I signed up.

The point is that incentives need to be provided for role based combat otherwise the meta stays the same as it is right now - everyone brings the biggest guns they can pack because that's where the rewards are. R&R won't change that, all it will do is make it harder to pack big guns for people with no money while not having any effect on people with a huge bankroll.

[Und3rSc0re]

Pater Mors, on 29 May 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

Putting words in my mouth again. I never said it had to be a medium. Mediums make very effective light killers. I've been playing one since I signed up.

The point is that incentives need to be provided for role based combat otherwise the meta stays the same as it is right now - everyone brings the biggest guns they can pack because that's where the rewards are. R&R won't change that, all it will do is make it harder to pack big guns for people with no money while not having any effect on people with a huge bankroll.

Only reason people have a huge bankroll was because rr was removed.... Else i would have probably 10 mil cbills now instead of 40 mil. It doesnt have to be repair rearm, it could be one little change as mediums make x% more cbills than other mechs. Hows that sound? Where are your role warfare incentives and dont say scouting bonuses that is not going to change mech diversity at all especially if someone can make the same bonuses in a heavy or assault. Your not gonna have an assault player go "wow these scouting bonuses sound fun im gonna go play mediums now!" since you can get the same bonuses in an assault and heavy.

If rr does ever get overhauled and reintroduced there will need to be a player wipe which they have already stated will not happen "though they have said the same for other things that eventually made it into the game".

[Tekadept]

Und3rSc0re, on 29 May 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

Only reason people have a huge bankroll was because rr was removed.... Else i would have probably 10 mil cbills now instead of 40 mil.

I made a higher profit back when RnR was in personally overall, There were a few loss matches, but overall was W1N.

[Und3rSc0re]

Tekadept, on 29 May 2013 - 11:14 PM, said:

I made a higher profit back when RnR was in personally overall, There were a few loss matches, but overall was W1N.

I made more profit back then as well, i actually chose my hbk founders based on mediums making the most in a rnr setting but that was taken away from me now it just sits in hanger rusting with its buggy reticle issue. I dont know how much cbills i would have currently if rnr was still in, i was just taking a guess since i ran a lot of games with xl engines in some mechs so that had to hurt the wallet a little bit, not sure if it would hurt 30 mil cbills though

Edited by Und3rSc0re, 29 May 2013 - 11:19 PM.

[Pater Mors]

Und3rSc0re, on 29 May 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

Only reason people have a huge bankroll was because rr was removed.... Else i would have probably 10 mil cbills now instead of 40 mil. It doesnt have to be repair rearm, it could be one little change as mediums make x% more cbills than other mechs. Hows that sound? Where are your role warfare incentives and dont say scouting bonuses that is not going to change mech diversity at all especially if someone can make the same bonuses in a heavy or assault. Your not gonna have an assault player go "wow these scouting bonuses sound fun im gonna go play mediums now!" since you can get the same bonuses in an assault and heavy.

If rr does ever get overhauled and reintroduced there will need to be a player wipe which they have already stated will not happen "though they have said the same for other things that eventually made it into the game".

I don't think the first part of your post was true. I distinctly remember reading a couple of players on these forums bragging about their bankrolls in the hundreds of millions of c-bills while R&R was still in the game. I might be wrong about that but I'm pretty sure I'm not.

Just because you can earn the same bonuses in an Assault doesn't mean you'll be able to easily. What about a bonus for spotting the first target in a match (a distinctly scouty thing to do)? I'll race you, you can take an assault and I'll take a light.

You are taking something I've said and narrowing it down and attacking one part of it by focusing on nothing but scouting. That's called a Strawman argument. Who's to say that they shouldn't add some bonuses to the heavies and assaults for things as well? My point is that you should be rewarded equally for all different styles of play not just for high damage dealing as that leads to a game where everyone brings builds that deal high damage.

[King Arthur IV]

it will slow the balancing in my opinion because we are reluctant to take certain weapons out and certain engines out. in beta we should be testing as many things as possible without road blocks.

[Und3rSc0re]

Pater Mors, on 29 May 2013 - 11:18 PM, said:

Just because you can earn the same bonuses in an Assault doesn't mean you'll be able to easily. What about a bonus for spotting the first target in a match (a distinctly scouty thing to do)? I'll race you, you can take an assault and I'll take a light.

They have that in world of tanks where lights go light up everything for 1 minute then die, great way to farm for some people. Yeah lets introduce suiciding lights so they can get out of the game real quick while making some great cbills. I would run my light, scout a bunch of players die leave game, run my assault/heavy continue to farm more cbills for the time involved.

Edited by Und3rSc0re, 29 May 2013 - 11:25 PM.

[Tekadept]

Und3rSc0re, on 29 May 2013 - 11:18 PM, said:

I made more profit back then as well, i actually chose my hbk founders based on mediums making the most in a rnr setting but that was taken away from me now it just sits in hanger rusting with its buggy reticle issue. I dont know how much cbills i would have currently if rnr was still in, i was just taking a guess since i ran a lot of games with xl engines in some mechs so that had to hurt the wallet a little bit, not sure if it would hurt 30 mil cbills though

At least the hunchbacks crosseyed problem is being fixed next patch I will take him out for a spin. I am sitting on 70mill now with using 7 days of premium total, so with RNR yeh I would need a vault.

King Arthur IV, on 29 May 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

it will slow the balancing in my opinion because we are reluctant to take certain weapons out and certain engines out. in beta we should be testing as many things as possible without road blocks.

LOL SLOW Balancing?? I dont think you could go any slower

[Pater Mors]

Und3rSc0re, on 29 May 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

They have that in world of tanks where lights go light up everything for 1 minute then die, great way to farm for some people. Yeah lets introduce suiciding lights so they can get out of the game real quick while making some great cbills. I would run my light, scout a bunch of players die leave game, run my assault/heavy continue to farm more cbills for the time involved.

Gee, I'm sure that PGI couldn't possibly introduce some sort of system to prevent farming so we'll have to deal with it. </sarcasm>

Anyway, I'm going to stop responding to you now because you can't have a discussion without putting words into other peoples mouths. You're making up your own imagined scenarios and then attacking them like it's something I've said.

[Und3rSc0re]

Pater Mors, on 29 May 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

Gee, I'm sure that PGI couldn't possibly introduce some sort of system to prevent farming so we'll have to deal with it. </sarcasm>

Anyway, I'm going to stop responding to you now because you can't have a discussion without putting words into other peoples mouths. You're making up your own imagined scenarios and then attacking them like it's something I've said.

There is no sort of system to prevent the farming unless you want to punish people that run out and accidentally die everygame which will cause tons of forum hate. We are also here to push ideas for more mech diversity. It looks like you are here trying to push little buffs to your medium/light mech gameplay that wont sway any of the majority of assaults/heavys without making it exploitable.

So yeah i agree first scout should get a bonus, but we are not here to talk about giving bonuses to scouting at all since it is not that much of an incentive to play lights unless it is good enough to farm maybe. But like i said the light playerbase is somewhat fine currently, we are not wanting players to play mass lights. Besides with that first scout bonus how is a medium going to beat a 150 kph light to first scout anyway? I can keep up with most of the mediums in my cataphract, how are they going to beat me at scouting? Go to suggestions and say "pgi we need scouting bonuses k". Thats it you are in the wrong post for this.

Edited by Und3rSc0re, 29 May 2013 - 11:44 PM.

[jozkhan]

I generally play my mechs fairly equally from 1st mech to latest mech one at a time and then start over (Im sure I cant be the only one who does that) What R&R meant to me at the time... (with between 1 mech through to having 10 or so mechs) was that IT FORCED ME TO PLAY TRIAL MECHS in order to recoup my losses and maintain my CBills going up after each 'round' of playing my own mechs.

Even when I had 10 mechs of my own, I had to play my own mechs then play a game in each trial mech in order to balance the books.

With disconnects, hudbugs, 6 v 8 and other situations where 'skill' had very little influence on win /lose R&R felt punishing, even when it wasnt your fault at all.

perhaps a special (few?) game modes with R&R turned on for community warfare might be something but keep it away from 'new player retention' areas.

The grind is already at the limits of what players will tolerate, I've lost a friend from the game due to the long grind cited.

There are many ways to reward mech diversity and reward better gameplay - PUNISHMENT doesnt have to be part of it.

Edited by jozkhan, 29 May 2013 - 11:43 PM.