79 replies to this topic

[Space Odin]

The catapult cockpit is far too easy to hit. When playing testing grounds trying to hit the cockpit on almost any other mech is near impossible while they're perfectly stationary. The hitboxes for most cockpits are completely different dimensions than what their graphics are. The Catapult is the only exception to this. Its very true to the graphic, which is MASSIVE and its nearly the dead center of the center torso which means enemies will hit it by accident all the time. As someone whos 1 shotted many catapults and whos been one shotted many times while piloting catapults this desperately needs fixing. The problem is so bad it basically equates to any time someone fires more than 20 or so damage at a full armor catapults center torso there's about a 1 in 10 chance they will just die instantly. That is not an exaggeration.

I encourage anyone who reads this to play a testing grounds match and try to hit every mech in the cockpit and tell me that the catapults isnt the easiest by significant margin. Its just unfair to catapult pilots.

[Seox]

Space Odin, on 21 March 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

The catapult cockpit is far too easy to hit. When playing testing grounds trying to hit the cockpit on almost any other mech is near impossible while they're perfectly stationary. The hitboxes for most cockpits are completely different dimensions than what their graphics are. The Catapult is the only exception to this. Its very true to the graphic, which is MASSIVE and its nearly the dead center of the center torso which means enemies will hit it by accident all the time. As someone whos 1 shotted many catapults and whos been one shotted many times while piloting catapults this desperately needs fixing. The problem is so bad it basically equates to any time someone fires more than 20 or so damage at a full armor catapults center torso there's about a 1 in 10 chance they will just die instantly. That is not an exaggeration.

I encourage anyone who reads this to play a testing grounds match and try to hit every mech in the cockpit and tell me that the catapults isnt the easiest by significant margin. Its just unfair to catapult pilots.

Seconded. I mainly play my catapult C1 and have stopped playing the game nearly as much as usual since the inclusion of the jagermech. I handled dual AC20 cats just fine since CB, but I have been headshot three times in six matches by jagermechs, twice with AC20s and once with six AC2s. I do not blame the mech at all, as they're no problem in any other mech; It's the combination of high power and the downward angle created by the higher mounts on their guns normalizing the slope present on the cat's cockpit.

It really hurts the fun factor present in the cat, as this has always been an issue but is now extremely prominent. Please voice your concerns so that the devs will hopefully address this. Every other problem mech has had its head hitbox reworked to extremely small proportions; I think that the catapult deserves the same favor.

[Ryvucz]

Let's not forget that the actual cockpit is on the things nose.

[Loch Ness Dongster]

Sure it's one of the easier mechs to headshot, but it's not unfair... I've only been headshotted maybe 1/30 games, and the most recent one was by an ac/20 cat who knew what he was doing. I see absolutely no problem while piloting the mech. Just got to utilize cover more.

[Seox]

Lochness Dongster, on 22 March 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

Sure it's one of the easier mechs to headshot, but it's not unfair... I've only been headshotted maybe 1/30 games, and the most recent one was by an ac/20 cat who knew what he was doing. I see absolutely no problem while piloting the mech. Just got to utilize cover more.

Trust me, mate, I've been here since CB. I've -not one time- been killed by a headshot up until the jagermechs arrived. Hundreds and hundreds of matches in that cat, not one headshot kill.


Then I'm killed by headshots 3 times in 6 matches.

It isn't that simple.

For those that are skeptical, please take a look at this:



Note that the only other mechs with head hitboxes that look large are the lights, but we know that those are much smaller in game and only appear so large because of the zoom in the reference picture. The centurion and hunchback also feature decently sized head hitboxes, but you have to make the conscious decision to shoot those and risk missing entirely; they are not "bonus crits" that you receive while aiming at the CT like you do when you shoot at a catapult. Keep in mind that the cockpit appears smaller from this angle because it is slanted; In game it appears larger still because you're usually flush with it/above it.

Furthermore, "That's just a weakness of the catapult" doesn't work because of the sheer amount of damage you'll inevitably have to face in game. I've even heard some people say that it's a mechanic to encourage catapult pilots to play second-line, but there are plenty of other "by-design fire support mechs" in game that do not feature similar mechanics meant to nudge players into roles, not to mention the fact that fire support mechs are often themselves targeted by missiles and long range direct fire which will pretty naturally fall to center mass, as people do not want to risk trying to hit specific components at 1400m and missiles indiscriminately tend towards the middle of the mech being hit.

Lastly, check out the 'phract's cockpit zone. Yeah. That's far more accurate. Why in the hell is the catapult's cockpit zone so much larger when they're so similar in actual size?

Every other mech that has ever had hitbox problems has been fixed, typically with a hotfix, to rectify the problem.

Hopefully this helps to better illustrate just how bad the problem is.

Edited by Seox, 22 March 2013 - 12:47 AM.

[Dimitry Matveyev]

The same here. After 21/03/2013 patch I was killed by headshots a lot of times in 3-4 days. Before that only approx. 5 times in two monthes!

[Seox]

To clarify, before it is said,

I am aware that LRMs and cockpits were experiencing atypical issues before the hotfix; It wasn't that at all, each of the times that I was killed were about one minute into the match with full armor. I just dropped dead. Friends that I dropped with IDed it as a jagermech each time The catapult's cockpit has long been a problem, and it will only be further exacerbated by current and upcoming implementations to the game. Fix it now and it won't be a problem any longer!

Edited by Seox, 22 March 2013 - 12:58 AM.

[ryoma]

They made the cockpit of the cataphract nice and compact. Would love to see similar treatment in the pult.

[Sam Hall]

To own a founders C1 is to be punished forever for one stupid mistake long ago. It just sits there in your mechbay, unsellable, mocking you. "oh, you want a reasonable compromise between toughness and speed? HITBOXES SUCKER, EAT IT! Ha ha ha I could have been an Atlas or a Jenner".

[Adridos]

Catapult is the best mech in the game, period. It can do everything and it can be great at it.
It can be ungodly fast, ungodly durable and do ungodly amounts of damage.

The mech is designed to be an LRM support mech. YOu cna make a great brawler out of it, but you have to live with the consequences. If you can't, then switch to it's intened role, or simply get better at the game.

[Seox]

Adridos, on 22 March 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Catapult is the best mech in the game, period. It can do everything and it can be great at it.
It can be ungodly fast, ungodly durable and do ungodly amounts of damage.

The mech is designed to be an LRM support mech. YOu cna make a great brawler out of it, but you have to live with the consequences. If you can't, then switch to it's intened role, or simply get better at the game.

With all due respect, mate, it sounds like you're the one who needs to get better at the game if you don't see the significance of a free 18 point hitbox that covers 33% of the frontal profile of a mech. Did you even bother reading the thread? I already gave several reasons why the "It's cuz it doesn't belong up close" argument is wrong.

Furthermore, if you think cats are the best mech in the game, I have no further reason to believe you have any idea what you're talking about. Catapults have plenty of weaknesses, too. Y'know, like...lack of arms....GIANT I WIN BUTTON ON THE CT.....etc.

Sounds like someone can't handle them even WITH the ridiculous cockpit....

It could be argued that the catapult's cockpit needs to be the SMALLEST, as again, it's something you end up hitting for free, unintentionally. With other mechs, you have to make a conscious decision to forgo the CT and try to hit a significantly smaller target and risk missing completely. With the catapult, it's like the game suddenly supports a critical hit system.

Edited by Seox, 22 March 2013 - 09:23 AM.

[Huron Fal]

Avid Cat player and Cataphract player. Very similar hitboxes, have only ever been headshotted once in my Phract, been headshotted close to a dozen times in my pult both pre and post OP missle patch. Generally the culprit is Multi - PPC or AC20 boats. The box is too easy to hit, period. Anyone claiming otherwise has either A: Never piloted a catapult for an extended time or B: Is too busy exploiting the head hitbox to care

[Cyke]

Seox makes some very good observations about the current head hit areas.

Consider that, as a rule of thumb, we can categorize 'Mechs into two categories, humanoid and non-humanoid.
- For humanoid 'Mechs like the HBK and CN9, they can afford to be larger, because aiming for them and missing will likely mean the shot misses entirely.
- For non-humanoid 'Mechs, not only is it low-risk to aim for the head (since a miss means you'll hit the CT anyway), it also means that long-range fire aimed at center-of-mass often hits the head.

So it's an issue of the CPLT falling into the second category, but having a head size like the first category instead..

Edited by Cyke, 22 March 2013 - 01:00 PM.

[Space Odin]

Thanks for continuing to prove my point everyone. At least I know I'm not the only victim of this problem.

About catapults being good, I'm not arguing that they're not. I've been playing since closed beta and they've have had access to some of the best builds in the game, but the issue of being one shotted is inexcusable. It shouldn't be possible in this game to kill any mech so easily for the sole reason that losing one member for nothing is a monumental disadvantage to the team and results in incredibly one sided matches (which we all know for a fact is the current state of the game). This is not an acceptable balance mechanic either. It simply discourages me from playing the mech entirely, not "using it in its intended role".

[Dorynn]

I don't think headshots of ANY kind are easy right now.

I run a Hunchback (refer to the hitbox diagram above to see just how much of my rear i'm hanging over the ragged edge) and I have NEVER been headshotted. I have also never headshotted anyone myself. In fact, in all the games I've been in, I have seen ONE headshot pulled off on a team mate of mine. When I confronted the mech responsible, I found out why:

Gauss Rifle
ER PPC
ER PPC

Also known as the 'poptart' build, when combined with jump jets. This is the only way to reliably headshot enemies, and even then, you'll likely shut down after two shots, and you can't carry anything else (in most mechs) which makes you utter rubbish in a close quarters fight.

[Seox]

Dorynn, on 22 March 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

I don't think headshots of ANY kind are easy right now.

I run a Hunchback (refer to the hitbox diagram above to see just how much of my rear i'm hanging over the ragged edge) and I have NEVER been headshotted. I have also never headshotted anyone myself. In fact, in all the games I've been in, I have seen ONE headshot pulled off on a team mate of mine. When I confronted the mech responsible, I found out why:

Gauss Rifle
ER PPC
ER PPC

Also known as the 'poptart' build, when combined with jump jets. This is the only way to reliably headshot enemies, and even then, you'll likely shut down after two shots, and you can't carry anything else (in most mechs) which makes you utter rubbish in a close quarters fight.

This is because people would have to make a conscious decision to shoot at your head hitbox and risk missing or doing negligible damage to areas they do not feel they could consistently hit, and this is precisely also the reason why our head hitbox is a problem. Would you be nearly so ok with it if people got headshots on you ACCIDENTALLY?

I understand what you are saying; I run many other mechs and do not have the issue with any of them either, but that doesn't make it a non issue with catapults.

[Space Odin]

Dorynn, on 22 March 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

I don't think headshots of ANY kind are easy right now.

I run a Hunchback (refer to the hitbox diagram above to see just how much of my rear i'm hanging over the ragged edge) and I have NEVER been headshotted. I have also never headshotted anyone myself. In fact, in all the games I've been in, I have seen ONE headshot pulled off on a team mate of mine. When I confronted the mech responsible, I found out why:

Gauss Rifle
ER PPC
ER PPC

Also known as the 'poptart' build, when combined with jump jets. This is the only way to reliably headshot enemies, and even then, you'll likely shut down after two shots, and you can't carry anything else (in most mechs) which makes you utter rubbish in a close quarters fight.

Part of the point we're making is that the catapults cockpit is basically in the center of the center torso meaning that you have a significant chance of killing the CT outright because of accidental cockpit hits. This doesnt happen on any other mech, also doesnt help that the CT is still the largest cockpit hitbox. You can even hit the cockpit when facing the catapults profile because it curves around the center torso. Its an insultingly huge disadvantage to catapults.

[Space Odin]

[K1ng Ghidorah]

You better be careful, people HATE cats around these parts. Even if you make sense.

[Falconic]

I think the support role comment has merit, but I do get that the catapults cockpit takes a lot of unintended dmg to the head. If those hit box images are right, I am surprised I didn't get head shot more often. I think it could definitely be smaller, but at the risk of stepping out. Maybe it should be slightly smaller and maybe add some armor in that area. Seems logical that a cockpit in a vulnerable position like that would be accounted for during construction. This could also give the mech a little more durability in its intended role, as support.