79 replies to this topic

[Glythe]

Voidcrafter, on 03 June 2013 - 12:41 AM, said:

It's not PPCs fault - it's the way people use them
3xPPCs is alright - it gives punch, but it does not make you that overpowered.
3+ is something that shouldn't happen.

It's not just the way people use them.... they are by design made to run too efficiently. Two ERPPCs and 1 MPL on a medium chassis will give you infinite ammo (huge advantage), and a 1.4 heat effeciency with a 255 XL engine and 16 double heat sinks. If it were 1.0 with that setup that might mean something (it doesn't so that's an irrelevant point). Most mediums have limited energy slots but it is still extremely easy to run 2 ERPPC with no heat problems and that is a major problem.

Voidcrafter, on 03 June 2013 - 12:41 AM, said:

So increase the heat, the cooldown, the speed, whatever...
What would that actually help?
Would it make people that boat the weapon stop using it without hurting all the rest of the player base, who is actually putting it in some reasonable builds?

Yea - the splatcats are gone now...
But who else is using the SRMs now?
Bad example, but kinda close one in my opinion.

What would actually help? It has to be worse than the laser at medium and short range and that is the bottom line. Lasers are supposed to be the 'OP' weapon in terms of weight/heat/damage at close range but they are a joke compared to the ERPPC.

The old heat values made PPCs worthless and the the new values make everything else worthless.

How do you fix it? Make them have something complicated about their use......so that it is LESS point and click than a laser.

Options include: firing delay, constant streams of damage (could you imagine if the PPC had a particle trail lasting 1 second like a laser), limited rate of fire (no more than 1 fired at a time for anything less than an assault which can fire 2 at a time), convergence issues (it could be sooooooo much worse), velocity issues (mentioned previously in this thread).



As for the SRM it was perfectly balanced to be honest if you compare it to the PPC. SRM boats had at most 250m range which means they either waited for you to push or you had a lot of time to strip weapons before they got close. Meanwhile the ERPPC works at every range, does all the damage in one spot, has infinite ammunition, low enough heat to boat two on just about any medium, extreme range and is very easy to hit with due to projectile speed.

[Victor Morson]

1- The PPC is a MEDIUM range weapon in TT. The ER PPC is a LONG range weapon, however.
2- The PPC has always been an awesome weapon in alpha strikes. See: Awesome, Warhawk, countless 'mechs that carry 2
3- The PPC is supposed to be one of the most common mainstream weapons for heavies and assaults.

It lives up to all of these things.

If the other weapons would be fixed - missile damage upped, energy discharge down, ballistic ROF upped - we might see a new era without even touching PPC balance again.

Glythe, on 03 June 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

It's not just the way people use them.... they are by design made to run too efficiently. Two ERPPCs and 1 MPL on a medium chassis will give you infinite ammo (huge advantage), and a 1.4 heat effeciency with a 255 XL engine and 16 double heat sinks. If it were 1.0 with that setup that might mean something (it doesn't so that's an irrelevant point). Most mediums have limited energy slots but it is still extremely easy to run 2 ERPPC with no heat problems and that is a major problem.

Yes because clearly mediums with 2 ER PPCs are the true problems with balance.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

LordBraxton, on 30 May 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

it is intended to be the only weapon worth taking

PPC is long range

ERPPC is extreme range

I love the hate towards poptarts, when stalkers are much more dangerous

Owning a non PPC stalker 3F, I have to agree.

Stalkers are OP.

[BlackIronTarkus]

I can't believe some people actually defend the state of the PPC... now thats some extreme fanboys.

Its insane, people with a brain have to explain the same thing differently over and over for the small hope that these fanatics will finally understand.

This community is filled with some players that really dont want this game to improve. They are like a man beating his wife while yelling ''BUT I LOOOOVE YOU''.

[Victor Morson]

BlackIronTarkus, on 03 June 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

I can't believe some people actually defend the state of the PPC... now thats some extreme fanboys.

Its insane, people with a brain have to explain the same thing differently over and over for the small hope that these fanatics will finally understand.

Or it could possibly be that you aren't really thinking about more than what is obvious and right in front of you, and not how PPCs reached that state. The "weapon ecosystem" is ruined, because ballistics have needed tuning, pulse lasers need tuning and missiles need MASSIVE tuning. The PPC is only good because it's competitors have been brought low.

To use my own analogy based on your uneducated response, what you are saying is more akin to "Evolution ain't real, I ain't no monkey! Dummy scientists!" or "Global warming ain't happenin', it still gets cold in winter!" You're seeing the obvious observable effects with no research into how they came to be that way.

tl/dr: Yes, PPCs are better than most other weapons. No, this not because PPCs are OP. Restore the other weapons and you restore the balance.

Edited by Victor Morson, 03 June 2013 - 06:43 PM.

[Sephlock]

The PPC is intended to be a lightning gun, which it hasn't been since MechWarrior 1 (and really, not even then- but I like to forgive them due to the limitations of computers of the era).

[Karr285]

wouldnt it be interesting if they changed how PPC's worked by making them do 7 damage + 3 to adjacent location.
Could also help with he potential Clan PPC crap, 9 damage 6 to adjacent location.

still do their intended damage, but now without touching convergence spread the damage of them a bit. Now only Ballistics remain as the single location hitters.

I justify this as only PPC's in the energy category can delivery 100% damage to 1 location with every shot, this should be the ballistics Niche.

would go from 4 ppc's doing 40 pinpoint to 28, with the potential of doing 12-24 damage to adjacent locations. So now you could be doing more overall damage just spread out.

[MasterErrant]

PPCs are a big nasty weapon. they are the energy weapon equivalent of the AC 20 for gods sake. and ERPPCs more so

[Rizzelbizzeg]

The heat penalty doesn't outweigh the weight/ammo penalty of the acs/ballistics imo. Dont' nerf ppcs, BUFF THE DAKKA

meh or nerf ppcs whatever /srug

[Voidcrafter]

Glythe, on 03 June 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

It's not just the way people use them.... they are by design made to run too efficiently. Two ERPPCs and 1 MPL on a medium chassis will give you infinite ammo (huge advantage), and a 1.4 heat effeciency with a 255 XL engine and 16 double heat sinks. If it were 1.0 with that setup that might mean something (it doesn't so that's an irrelevant point). Most mediums have limited energy slots but it is still extremely easy to run 2 ERPPC with no heat problems and that is a major problem.


What would actually help? It has to be worse than the laser at medium and short range and that is the bottom line. Lasers are supposed to be the 'OP' weapon in terms of weight/heat/damage at close range but they are a joke compared to the ERPPC.

The old heat values made PPCs worthless and the the new values make everything else worthless.

How do you fix it? Make them have something complicated about their use......so that it is LESS point and click than a laser.

Options include: firing delay, constant streams of damage (could you imagine if the PPC had a particle trail lasting 1 second like a laser), limited rate of fire (no more than 1 fired at a time for anything less than an assault which can fire 2 at a time), convergence issues (it could be sooooooo much worse), velocity issues (mentioned previously in this thread).



As for the SRM it was perfectly balanced to be honest if you compare it to the PPC. SRM boats had at most 250m range which means they either waited for you to push or you had a lot of time to strip weapons before they got close. Meanwhile the ERPPC works at every range, does all the damage in one spot, has infinite ammunition, low enough heat to boat two on just about any medium, extreme range and is very easy to hit with due to projectile speed.

For your first point -
with 1.4 Eff and 16xDHS you could fire 2xERPPC like about 3 or 4 times before you overheat(that's 60 or 80 damage for 12 or 16 secs) , and all that for 20 tons and for 24 crittical slots(6xDHS 2xERPPC = 8*3 == 24), after you do that, you're force to wait about 7 secs to be able to fire them again.
I don't see them as that imballanced weapon - in fact I think it's quite alright - yes, if you're on a map that there are long distances visible all the time(Alpine, Tourmanline) you could find yourself in a great disadvantage - but in any other case scenario it's not a big deal.
The the ordinary PPCs fire effectively to about 800-900m - 3 of them produce the heat that 2xERPPC do, and if get hugged(which is - yea, quite hard) in the best case you'll do the half the damage you're supose to. And all that(providing you're with the same amount of DHS) for 27 crittical slots and 31 tons.

Admit it - two ERPPCs are not that scary if you have direct visual contact with the target.
Well 3+ from them and 3+ from the ordinary is quite another story, as I pointed - the mechs who can make use of the ability to mount that much ammount from the weapon doesn't seem to have any other choice.
The STALKER for example - why bother with LL or any sort of Laser when it can one-shot almost any mech in the game(not sure for the atlai - but it would make it think twice for sure), which has orange central torso armor instead of firing like 3 times, counting to get in range, exposing itself to danger - etc.

Ammo conservation is not that great of an issue in any other case rather than Gauss and AC20 boats. It would probably will when they implement the 12 player teams, but still... 24/31 tons and 27/30 crittical slots are both quite a lot of space and weight.
People just don't see another usage for it - again - it's not the weapon's fault - everything that becomes metagame or boated seems overpowered to the people who have different style.

For the other points of the ballancing - I tend to agree, though for me not allowing any mech(exept the AWESOME - I think that's even battletech's wise) to carry more than 3 of them would be the ultimate fix for me.
The current STALKER hardpoints are just... stupid... sorry.
SRMs were fine - you have no idea how much I miss their state before the "nerf" - there were certain mech's like the commando or the AWS(and two other I think, but I can't recall which) who really had issues with the splash damage(meaning --> 3xSRM6+Artemis == oneshot a commando that's facing you - I've done that more than 30 times ingame) but aside from that - since the map layout and variety has changed, implementing new ways for the battle flow, you should really be punished when you leave someone get that close enough for you to unload a SRM salvo.
And it shouldn't be like "MEEH... This guy has SRMs, I'll focus the jenner with the Lazorz.".

[Galenit]

Cyke, on 30 May 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Therefore, simply boosting the heat for PPCs and ER PPCs back to 10 and 15 respectively will significantly reduce their effective fire rate at close range, and put them where they need to be: awesome weapons, but with the huge drawback that they're meant to have.

This and removing the stupid heat containment increase from heatsinks and adding heat penaltys will do it.

If i stick a heatsink+cooler to my gpu it will be toast on the same temperature then without the heatsink+cooler.

A 6ppc stalker will build up 60 heat but can contain only around 30 or 40.
Let him fire a alpha and he melts, problem solved.

Edit:
Looking at that, a moderate heat increase should be enough ...

Edited by Galenit, 04 June 2013 - 02:58 AM.

[OneEyed Jack]

Voidcrafter, on 04 June 2013 - 02:44 AM, said:

why bother with LL or any sort of Laser when it can one-shot almost any mech in the game which has orange central torso armor

By definition, one-shotting means killing something with a single shot. Finishing something off that has been previously damaged - especially if damaged in that location when hit locations are involved - is never one-shotting, regardless of how much or little damage it took.

It may seem like petty semantics, but that kind of misuse of wordage leads those with poor reading comprehension (a distressingly large percentage of the reader base) to misunderstand what's going on and we get people screaming that "PPC boats are one-shotting Assault mechs" and the like.

[MaddMaxx]

Glythe, on 30 May 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

I'm going to have to disagree with you because every weapon in this game has an intended range and purpose. If one weapon fills all rolls then that weapon is broken when compared to all the rest. Go play 10 games and count the number PPC mechs vs non PPC mechs. You will always find more PPC mechs in the current meta because they are better. They shouldn't always be better all the time; they should be better for one specific role (like the rest of the weapons in the game).

Well then I guess the LargeLaser needs to be nerfed as well. It does 1 less damage per, has a doable Heat in numbers, fights effectively at the ranges mentioned above, 500m and in, and does not have a min. range.

The LL is then, by the noted definition provided, also a Master of all.

[MaddMaxx]

MasterErrant, on 03 June 2013 - 08:53 PM, said:

PPCs are a big nasty weapon. they are the energy weapon equivalent of the AC 20 for gods sake. and ERPPCs more so

Holy smokes. You do know the PPC does only 10 damage each right? How the hell can a 10pt. weapon be the equivalent of a 20pt. weapon?

Roll the Dice.... Snake eyes.. I'm out.

[DaZur]

ERLLas, LLas, EPPC, PPC, Gauss and some would argue AC/20 are all examples of apex weapons. There were on TT, they are penned as such in novel and have been as such in every computer iteration of Mechwarrior to date, to include MW:O...

The problem is the current game mechanics does not foster any reason to field balanced builds and MW:O being a competitive win/loss game... The present meta is to bring the biggest gun to the fight in order to achieve personal "wins".

That said... There is nothing in the current game mechanics that cannot be overcome through deviation in tactics and team-play.

Sadly, it's easier to clamor for nerfs than it is to invoke counter-tactics and or actively encourage / participate in teamwork.

[Joseph Mallan]

MaddMaxx, on 04 June 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

Holy smokes. You do know the PPC does only 10 damage each right? How the hell can a 10pt. weapon be the equivalent of a 20pt. weapon?

Roll the Dice.... Snake eyes.. I'm out.

Maxx I think you missed his meaning. The PPC is to Energy weapons what the AC20 is to Ballistics. It is a BFG. In that sense the OP was correct. though I would have said it is the Gauss of Energy weapons. Excluding the heat difference.

[Karr285]

DaZur, on 04 June 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

That said... There is nothing in the current game mechanics that cannot be overcome through deviation in tactics and team-play.

Sadly, it's easier to clamor for nerfs than it is to invoke counter-tactics and or actively encourage / participate in teamwork.

The counter-tactics to 8 alpha boats with mostly assault heavy teams is... what shock 8 alpha boats with mostly assault heavy team, there is a reason not a lot of people want to play 8v8's right now and this is also my reason, its boring.

You seriously are asking random people to engage in teamwork? you must be trolling now or just never play the game.

[Hammertrial]

The intended purpose is for it to do x damage at y range for z heat, like every other weapon.

[Joseph Mallan]

Karr285, on 04 June 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

The counter-tactics to 8 alpha boats with mostly assault heavy teams is... what shock 8 alpha boats with mostly assault heavy team, there is a reason not a lot of people want to play 8v8's right now and this is also my reason, its boring.

You seriously are asking random people to engage in teamwork? you must be trolling now or just never play the game.

8 Lights with Cap accelerator...

[General Taskeen]

The purpose of PPC is to turn off ECM for use the Streaks. Derps.