138 replies to this topic

[Aethon]

Victor Strauss, on 07 June 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

Joanna from The Legend of the Jade Phoenix trilogy is my favorite female character in Battletech.

You should read 'I am Jade Falcon', if you enjoy the banter between Joanna, Horse, and Dianna. It's rather amusing.

And I agree...she's one of, if not the, best female character in Battletech. She's also identical to my childhood violin instructor, minus physical assaults and studded gloves, lol.

[Aero Slasher]

everyone has a equal and natural free will.
but but nature makes us different physically is why the world is that way it is today and will be tomorrow.

[Melissia]

Battlecruiser, on 07 June 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

even if I was lying it doesn't change the fact that feminism practically revolves around lying and special treatment.

There is no fact. Asking for equal treatment is not the same as asking for special treatment.

Again, you are doing nothing but lying about feminism to try to demonize the movement. Your argument is wholly and utterly devoid of fact.

Edited by Melissia, 07 June 2012 - 07:01 PM.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

Blackhandsaint, on 07 June 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

I know some mechwarriors like to rock a minimalist garb, and that really doesn't trouble me because it's not sexualized and actually has a logical explanation (mechs run hot). Honestly, if I were a mechwarrior I'd probably just strip while my mech was powering up and suit back up once I came home from fragging clanners.

the only reason i'd say piloting in the buff is out is because of both the chafing and the off chance you'll need to eject. plus sweat ruins fabric, it's the salt.

but yeah, tshirt/shorts probably running commando is how its done on all but winter pla hey on that note are there going to be winter maps that modify your heat accumulation and cooling factors?

[Samuel Maxwell]

Melissia, on 07 June 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Lying and misleading people for the sake of denigrating a side you disagree with does not do you any service.

Indeed. Feminism is not saying that women are better than men. It's saying that women are equal to men, and society needs to push for such equality. However, feminism isn't just empowering women. It's also trying to be equal for men so that they don't have to be pressured to be "masculine" as well.

Feminism is an awesome idea that too often gets portrayed as the female ubermensch and anti-male by the media, which is not what feminism is at all. There are so many topics that can be discussed with regards to treating women better even in today's society, but those have little/no bearing to fans showing gratitude for MechWarrior Online.

Battlecruiser, on 07 June 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

even if I was lying it doesn't change the fact that feminism practically revolves around lying and special treatment. This however does not mean I condone sexism or gender roles, simply that I do not believe in treating anyone special because it's unfair whether female, male, or unsure.

It revolves around special treatment, yes. Being a male-dominated society, men have been treated special. We have the benefit of doing things that would be frowned upon socially for women. Laws still favor men more than women. If you need more proof, go look at the U.S. Congress and listen to them when they talk about related topics. Go read the papers about victims of rape and see how minor the suspect's punishment is compared to the devastation he's caused.

The whole point of feminism is to eliminate special treatment by leveling the playing field and to eliminate "supposed" roles for both men and women.

Edited by Samuel Maxwell, 07 June 2012 - 07:07 PM.

[Melissia]

Battlecruiser, on 07 June 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

okay for the sake of argument, I'll let you have maternity leave

Companies are offering paternity leave now as well, thanks to the push for equal rights between the genders. And besides, fathers are parents too, even if people like you tend to forget that.

Battlecruiser, on 07 June 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

but on the other things; gender neutrality?

And this is somehow bad?

Battlecruiser, on 07 June 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

mandated equal pay for women?

Are you going to decry equal pay for blacks, too? Having a law saying that you cannot discriminate your payroll based off of gender does not equate to everyone earning the same amount.

Battlecruiser, on 07 June 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

and let's not forget the easily exploitable (but intially well intended) laws and ruls that let you basically ruin a man's reputation and career out of spite on nothing but a word?

As opposed to laws which can do the same to a woman? But this problem doesn't really seem to exist much in the real world. Very few places have these laws any more... in part because of the push for equal rights between the genders.

Battlecruiser, on 07 June 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

ot to mention how feminists just seem to invent a new kind of rape every day

Yeah, you're just trolling now.

Edited by Melissia, 07 June 2012 - 07:17 PM.

[GrimFist]

Nice thread,

A bit sensitve for me but a good point. I beleive that the more inclusion in any good story results in a better outcome. As for anything geeky, anything that lets more girls/women enjoy the story, game, community the better.

[Beazle]

Melissia, on 07 June 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Lying and misleading people for the sake of denigrating a side you disagree with does not do you any service.

Responding to obvious trolls does you no service either.

For references to this and real life feminism i suggest you look into some of the organized feminist responses to conservative religious groups comments about Roe v Wade.

Again, this is Off-Topic.

Now to ON-TOPIC.

This is not actually an example of feminism. For it to be an example of Feminism, it would have to show support for(or disapproval against) something that affects women, and their rights.

This does not mean to imply that it is sexist. (that kinda of "with or against" so common in the world to day is why there are so few successful debate clubs in schools these days.)

The fiction writers for MWO are showcasing only snippets of a broad universe. They have not, for example, talked about the pay this female pilot is receiving, and how it compares to males in her unit, nor how quickly (again, compared to males) she was promoted.

It does, in fact, make no real political statement at all.

It's just fiction.

The failure of so many modern feminist to even identify what is and is not a feminism issue is one of the many reasons that said feminist fail to achieve their stated goal.

To recap, the snippets of fiction that come along with each Mech release are neither feminist, nor sexist. They are simply non-political portrayals of possible events within the BattleTech Universe.

[Melissia]

Women ARE put on equal footing with men in battletech, however. At least they are in the dozens of novels I have.

[Waladil]

Even though I said I was getting out of this silly argument, I'm stepping back in, but just to (try to be) be the voice of reason between two parties.

"Feminism" can mean a lot of different things, and covers a very wide range of opinions on gender (in)equality. Yes, by and large feminists are a good bunch, and mean well. However, they do often attempt to create laws to promote social change that are... misguided. A law that mandated equal pay for women would be a disaster, because any situation where two salaried employees have nominally the same position but do different levels of work would have to get equal pay: Say there's a lazy man and a hard-working woman. If you mandated equal pay, then management wouldn't be allowed legally to give a bonus for hard work to JUST the hard-working woman. It works vice-versa, of course, with a hard-working man and lazy woman.

Attempts like that are trying to promote changes in a social mindset using the legislature, which is very difficult, esp. in America where the populace has a generally low opinion of the legal structure.

And there ARE crazy wacked-out feminists out there. They are the minority, and I acknowledge that. But you always remember the nasty things the longest -- I can still remember the one time I drank rotten milk over half my life ago, but I can't remember any particular drinking of milk within the last five years. Same goes for feminists: I remember that one slightly crazy teacher in elementary school who would completely discount "history" because it wasn't "herstory" and basically believed in a fairy-tale version of reality where men were useless dead weights.

Melissia, you're kind of arguing from a very double-think position. You identify as being "feminist" and react defensively when people speak against it. However, they're not speaking against the form of feminism you hold, which seems to be the good kind. They (and I) are speaking against the crazy-wacked out kind, and you're defending that using things that would make sense defending rational feminism.

To use an analogy, this would be defending the Westboro Baptists based on a historical viewpoint of all the good Christianity has done -- all well and good, but the Westboro folks are still batshit crazy.

[Aethon]

That's one thing I've always liked in Battletech; such a wide diversity of characters are portrayed. Even the female characters are widely varied, rather than all being smoking hot, barely-clothed teenage wet dreams. Some of them are even described as considerably less than beautiful, which is rather rare for fiction (Samantha Clees, for an example).

Also, discussing gender equality outside of Battletech is getting out onto somewhat-shaky ground for a forum like this; if you really want to head in that dircection, you may want to make another topic for it in Off-Topic, and post a link to the thread here. Just a thought.

Edited by Aethon, 07 June 2012 - 07:40 PM.

[Suicidal Idiot]

Aethon, on 07 June 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

Skyrim is still awesome, but there's only so many times I can make a pincushion out of someone's face before it starts to get old.

I used to play Skyrim, too. But then I took an arrow in my knee.

Jason Phoenix, on 07 June 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

Sorry, I dont wear shorts... Too much sweating in a Lazer Boat

If you're male, you'll probably want the support. Things can get a little bouncy in a mech, and you could easily end up with some parts swinging under other parts on a bump. On the landing, it will hurt. And your hand's won't be free to do any rearranging.

And remember to install a floor drain in your Laser Boat.

Edited by Suicidal Idiot, 07 June 2012 - 07:50 PM.

[Melissia]

BAD MEME. BAD.

Don't make me rip the arrow out of your knee and shove it up somewhere a little higher!

Quote

You identify as being "feminist" and react defensively when people speak against it. However, they're not speaking against the form of feminism you hold, which seems to be the good kind.

It's the only kind, really.

Feminism is defined as a movement aimed at "defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women". Nowhere in this is female dominance or superiority established, nor the creation of a matriarchy, nor the denigration of men. Just because there are feminists who also happen to push forth the idea of female dominance doesn't mean taht feminism itself is about female dominance. That is utter nonsense.

Christianity as a religion is far less specifically defined in comparison, but there are some very specific divisions for it, as well. Claiming that, for example, tehre were Christian nazis, and therefor all Christians are nazis, is just as bad.

Edited by Melissia, 07 June 2012 - 07:57 PM.

[Beazle]

Melissia, on 07 June 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

Women ARE put on equal footing with men in battletech, however. At least they are in the dozens of novels I have.

Sometimes they are and sometimes they are not. Much like, how in the real world, sometimes they are, and sometimes they are not.

You do know there there is still a conservative Muslim population described in the Combine, and that the Draconis Combine itself is commonly described as sexist. That is because all good fiction portrays mankind AS IT IS, with only minor deviation for artistic effect. The innersphere can be describe as "the world write large" only with giant death robots.

You remember the giant death robots don't you? They're what your supposed to talk about in this particular forum instead of real life politics which belong in the Off-Topic forum.

I will leave this discussion with 3 points i consider valid.

1:) The fiction on this site is just fiction. I don't think PGI is out to make political statements here. They're just throwing out chum to keep the sharks circling.

2:) You have probably done more harm trying to support the cause of feminism in this post than good. The explanation for this is lengthy, and, believe it or not, was a major point of one of the classes I (that's me, retired US Army Soldier and Confirmed Jerk) took (at government expense) on Modern Feminism.

3:) Discussion of real life feminism (which this topic has devolved into) belong on the Off-topic Forum.

On those notes, i'm leaving this discussion.

[Melissia]

The argument of "doing more harm than good" was also pushed forth at MLK, as well.

The thread is about feminism and battletech. I'm fairly certain that people who click on the thread understand that the thread is about feminism and battletech. Claiming that feminists should never defend their beliefs because they might offend someone is silly.

[Melissia]

Waladil, on 07 June 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

I'm not going to argue the how's and why's, but this is pretty undeniable. It would be foolish (and incredibly sexist!) to say that NO WOMAN EVER has used the system of child support to leech off a man.

And I haven't suggested that. I don't know if you have read the etnrie thread (it is seven pages now, after all), but I haven't made any argument that equal rights for women should come at the expense of the rights of men. In fact, I've pointed out some of the injustices that society does to men.

Waladil, on 07 June 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

Since you two have apparently decided to discuss rape

I didn't. I ignored him after he posted that nonsense. I am not discussing a sensitive issue like that with someone who claims that all feminists are female supremacists.

Edited by Melissia, 07 June 2012 - 08:04 PM.

[Aethon]

Suicidal *****, on 07 June 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

I used to play Skyrim, too. But then I took an arrow in my knee.

[Helmer]

We are way off topic.

Apologies to the OP, however, this thread has strayed far from an appropriate discussion in the General Forum about Mechwarrior Online.

If you wish to debate this further, please feel free to take advantage of the Personal Message system. If a user abuses the system, block them.



Cheers and locked.