10 replies to this topic

[Renthrak]

As most players are aware, there is only one useful tool for LRM targeting: TAG. NARC essentially performs the same function, but weighs more and is more difficult to use.

I propose minor changes, to create a more specific role for each one, based on the description of their functional operation.

TAG is laser target designator. This means that it uses a low-power laser beam, fired from the 'spotter', to illuminate a target. The laser reflects off of the target, and this reflection is detected by the targeting system of the 'shooter'. The 'shooter' is then able to launch guided missiles that will track and impact the reflection of the laser.

NARC is a targeting beacon. It is a device that, when affixed to a vehicle, broadcasts a radio signal. This signal can be detected by units carrying guided missiles. The missiles are then able to use the radio signal to find and strike the target without any further information, as long as the beacon continues to broadcast.

Both devices are used to designate targets, but there are significant differences in how they achieve this. To reflect this, I suggest the following:

TAG should only offer targeting data to 'Mechs with a line of sight to the target. If you're on the other side of a hill, you can't see the laser. Being entirely optical, it should still ignore ECM. This means both the 'Mech using TAG and the 'Mech launching missiles must be able to see the target.

NARC should not be affected by line of sight, allowing targeting behind obstacles. A powerful omnidirectional radio signal cannot be completely blocked by terrain. Since it uses a radio signal, being inside an ECM field would prevent the beacon from transmitting. Consequently, neither the 'Mech that launched the NARC beacon nor the 'Mech firing missiles will need to maintain line of sight once the beacon is active.

So, TAG could be countered by breaking line of sight with either the 'spotter' or the 'shooter', but allows the targeting of units under the effects of ECM. Once a NARC beacon is attached to a 'Mech, it allows indirect targeting and cannot be countered except by ECM, but has a limited duration. Both reduce missile lock times.

I think this would give TAG and NARC enough of a difference to make NARC a viable option. Thoughts?

[MustrumRidcully]

I am not really seeing how this will improve Narc enough to be worth its weight and low ammo count. That's Narc biggest problem, I think. It costs as much as a "real gun", and barely improves other weapons, and the degree it improves them is by no more than a much lighter system gives you.

As long as ECM stays a LRM lock-prevention mechanic, I think NARC must penetrate ECM. Let's just claim the Narc sends such a powerful signal that not even ECM can disrupt it (if we want to be clever, let ECM in Disrupt Mode negate Narc, but not in Jamming mode). Even that would not be really sufficient to make it worth investing, however. Double the projectile speed, double the ammo, and increase the duration of the Narc signal to at least 1 full minute and let it not be destroyed before the target has taken 150 damage.

[MasterBLB]

Tag's marker is spotted not by the firing unit but missiles flying in air

[Renthrak]

MustrumRidcully, on 05 May 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

I am not really seeing how this will improve Narc enough to be worth its weight and low ammo count. That's Narc biggest problem, I think. It costs as much as a "real gun", and barely improves other weapons, and the degree it improves them is by no more than a much lighter system gives you.

Since changing the weight of items doesn't seem to be an option, increasing the ammo per ton is the sensible option. Perhaps 10 rounds / ton?

MustrumRidcully, on 05 May 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

Double the projectile speed, double the ammo, and increase the duration of the Narc signal to at least 1 full minute and let it not be destroyed before the target has taken 150 damage.

I could see increasing the projectile speed, certainly. A 60 second duration might be a little high, but at least 45 seconds would be good. 150 damage just wouldn't work, there is no armor location on a 'Mech that can survive 150 damage in the first place. I would try 50 damage first, and see if that is enough of an improvement.

CYBRN4CR, on 05 May 2013 - 01:56 AM, said:

Uhhhhh isn't that what Tag already does and what Narc will do once the expected changes are implemented?

To my knowledge, painting a target with a TAG allows all friendly units to lock missiles on it regardless of line of sight. Only the unit carrying TAG needs to see the target, so TAG allows indirect fire. I am suggesting that only NARC should allow missile locks on units that you can't see.

MasterBLB, on 05 May 2013 - 04:35 AM, said:

Tag's marker is spotted not by the firing unit but missiles flying in air

That is true for modern military laser designators, yes. In MWO, however, placing the TAG on a target allows an LRM carrier to gain missile lock on a target that it cannot otherwise see. Firing unlocked LRMs into the air will not allow them to gain lock on a TAGed target. It doesn't make very much sense, but that's what we have to deal with, unless you want to completely rework TAG's function from the ground up.

[Pater Mors]

The biggest problem with NARC is it's weight and ammo count and the fact that it fires a slow moving 'dumb' missile that requires you to get extremely close to your intended target to use which then only lasts 15 seconds and can be shot off with a small laser.

If instead it fired a rocket which tracked to your reticule (meaning you had to keep it on the target for the rocket to hit and deploy the NARC) and broadcast for at least 30 seconds and lit up every missile equipped Mech's screen telling them a NARC was active, it would be 1000X more useful, even for it's current weight and range.

[Renthrak]

Pater Mors, on 05 May 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

... and lit up every missile equipped Mech's screen telling them a NARC was active

THIS is a great idea. The target box should start flashing or something, some visual effect to draw attention to it.

That way, NARC can not only be used by light 'Mechs to mark targets, but larger 'Mechs (Stalker 5M comes to mind) can use it as a "Request fire support" button. With a 45 second duration, that should be enough time for friendly LRM carriers to notice the NARCed target and launch several volleys, knowing that they will have an uninterrupted lock.

CYBRN4CR, on 05 May 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

So there's another use for the upcoming BAP. For TAG spotters wanting to TAG a target up close for LRM support and be free of ECM.

Exactly. With TAG, you must maintain the beam on target, which is difficult at close range. Carrying a BAP and NARC, however, would allow a pilot to mark their target, even if it has ECM, and then stay within 100m to disable the ECM. That should be easier if the pilot doesn't have to keep their cockpit pointed at the target.

Another useful combination would be NARC + Seismic Sensor. A light 'Mech with Jump Jets could hide behind cover, and use the Seismic Sensor to tell when a 'Mech is in range. Use the Jump Jets to pop up over the cover and mark the target, then drop back down and/or escape while the LRMs rain down.

[Asmudius Heng]

MustrumRidcully, on 05 May 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

I am not really seeing how this will improve Narc enough to be worth its weight and low ammo count. That's Narc biggest problem, I think. It costs as much as a "real gun", and barely improves other weapons, and the degree it improves them is by no more than a much lighter system gives you.

As long as ECM stays a LRM lock-prevention mechanic, I think NARC must penetrate ECM. Let's just claim the Narc sends such a powerful signal that not even ECM can disrupt it (if we want to be clever, let ECM in Disrupt Mode negate Narc, but not in Jamming mode). Even that would not be really sufficient to make it worth investing, however. Double the projectile speed, double the ammo, and increase the duration of the Narc signal to at least 1 full minute and let it not be destroyed before the target has taken 150 damage.

Sounds like another case of making ECM workarounds rather than changing ECM itself.

ECM has become the centerpoint of all electronics in the game - everything revolves around it still rather than it being a part of an overall picture of equipment.

My prediction - NARC will always suck.

[MustrumRidcully]

Renthrak, on 05 May 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

Since changing the weight of items doesn't seem to be an option, increasing the ammo per ton is the sensible option. Perhaps 10 rounds / ton?

I could see increasing the projectile speed, certainly. A 60 second duration might be a little high, but at least 45 seconds would be good. 150 damage just wouldn't work, there is no armor location on a 'Mech that can survive 150 damage in the first place. I would try 50 damage first, and see if that is enough of an improvement.

Not a single armour location, no, but damage tends to spread across multiple hit locations.

And my intention is really to make the Narc last a long time. I would be fine if it would last the entire match. (I would prefer it it was attached to a hit location and when that location is destroyed, it's gone, but if that can't be done, just make it last very long).

The problem of NARC is that it's such a heavy system, and it occupies a missile hard point. It's such a big investment, and it does barely help your team. Narc shouldn't turn missiles into pinpoint accurate homing devices from hell, but then it must have a reliable, long term benefit.

Asmudius Heng, on 05 May 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

Sounds like another case of making ECM workarounds rather than changing ECM itself.

Yes, but it seems the devs love their ECM mechanics as is. At some point I just give up and go for a compromise...

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 06 May 2013 - 12:37 AM.

[danneskold]

TAG should improve missile accuracy, and is LoS based for the targeting, not launching mech - this is a proper mechanic, and works like "painting" a target today.

NARC is different. I would propose that the Narc have proj range and speed improved, and last until destroyed - maybe the whole match. It should be a huge advantage, and not destoryed with with single hit - maybe with a missile volley, but it should be percentage based on hits to the area where the narc is placed - this is the only way to justify carrying it at its current weight, etc.

[General Taskeen]

What NARC is actually supposed to do in a Mech Warrior game:

[Bayamon]

Increase the projectile speed slightly, increase the duration of the signal (45ish seconds).

Give everyone with LRMs on your team a message that a target has been marked with NARC and add an easily visible icon above the enemies targeting box. (possibly a green one, to differentiate it from the usual ECM or missle inbound icon).

As long as the beacon is active ALL dumbfired LRMs or ones that have lost lock on their initial target will head towards the NARCed mech.


Making your team aware that a target has been hit with a NARC beacon is the biggest buff you can give it....so much that i wouldnt even mind the slow speed or low ammo/ton.

I would definietly equip NARC more often on my lights/fast mechs if i knew that i will get LRM support from my team.

Right now, if i happen to use LRMs, im very hesitant to use them on out of LoS unless im at least 90% sure that its going to remain a solid lock.

If i knew its NARCed, i would hammer away until the icon disappears.