122 replies to this topic

[Byk]

Wow. **** you OP for using those builds. But yes, I agree the fact that PPCs are hands down the best weapon in game right now is a big problem. Granted it's beta and they're working on it.

[SixBottles]

jakucha, on 30 May 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

An expanded heat system could potentially fix a lot of these boated, high damage alpha problems, while also getting people to use chain fire finally. What that expanded heat system might be, we'll just have to wait for PGI to mention it. Hopefully around next patch time.

i noticed something when firing 2 AC's 20 on my jm6-dd simultaneously...

when firing in chainfire the heat goes to (numbers are guessed) 20% and after the second shot up to 30% then goes down normally.
but if fired at the same time something strange happens. the heat peaks at 30% but then suddenly goes up to 35% and then quickly (near insantly) goes down to 30% and from there then dessipates normally.

never noticed this before with other weapons. idk. maybe its a connection/high ping bug...
BUT THIS IS THE WAY TO GO.

a small heat-peak penalty for boating weapons. not much but enough. and if u get more then 2 weapons the heat-peak penalty will increase.
it doesnt really effect low heat builds, since the peak-heat will dissapate almost instanly, but high heat weapons like PPC's are in danger to overheat due to the heat-peak.

[Pando]

Like I've said before....PPC's are finally balanced after a long, long time. Other weapons need help. Do not break a working weapon system in order to band-aid the other weapon systems that are borked.

BTW, half those builds you listed are crap.

Edited by Pando, 01 June 2013 - 03:29 AM.

[SixBottles]

ppc'S are balanced?

i noticed a sharp increase in my damage dealt, when switching to two ppc's instead of LPL on my atlas DDC (with AC20). and this is really stupid. i mean its an close range build, and therefore the LPL should be better.

the 90m minimum range for PPC's is a joke at hardly matters anyway.

but the PPC does pinpoint damage and has triple the range of an LPL... the only downside is a slight increase in heat output.

in what universe is that balanced?

EDIT

i think the min range should increase to 180m. then it would make sense. PPC for long ranges lasers for close range. and not ppc's for both.

Edited by SixBottles, 01 June 2013 - 03:34 AM.

[Pando]

SixBottles, on 01 June 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

ppc'S are balanced?

i noticed a sharp increase in my damage dealt, when switching to two ppc's instead of LPL on my atlas DDC (with AC20). and this is really stupid. i mean its an close range build, and therefore the LPL should be better.

the 90m minimum range for PPC's is a joke at hardly matters anyway.

but the PPC does pinpoint damage and has triple the range of an LPL... the only downside is a slight increase in heat output.

in what universe is that balanced?

EDIT

i think the min range should increase to 180m. then it would make sense. PPC for long ranges lasers for close range. and not ppc's for both.

Like i said, don't break a working weapon system to fix "BAND-AID" other weapon systems that are borked.

You need to talk to competitive players more often. I would not use PPC's because ER's are worth their weight in gold for having no minimum range and a greater maximum range. There are exceptions, but ER's are almost always worth taking over regulars.

Most pulse lasers need some heat adjustments.

Edited by Pando, 01 June 2013 - 03:37 AM.

[Nebelfeuer]

Damagewise 4x AC5/UAC5 cataphract and jager are a lot better then the builds you listed (nearly 10 dps substained) while the performance of ppcs falls of after having 2 due to heat. Basically having more then 2 PPC is a waste of tonage since you may get a lot of pinpont dmg but you loose substained dps and flexibility to cope with a lot of situations.
I agree that heat(mis)management should have harsher penalitiies and i would not object to a +1 heat for ER-/PPC but only if the cooldown is set back to 3sec instead of the current 4sec. The recent change was a singlesided nerf to builds with a single ppc and left boating build untoched. Additinal heat would balance 1-6 ppcs alike and be a better choice.

Oh and besides Pulselasers will only get vialble in the clanversion. The starleague version was and will always be crap.

Edited by Nebelfeuer, 01 June 2013 - 03:45 AM.

[Livewyr]

Pando, the problem with that logic: the logic of making all the weapons overpowered, is that you end up playing CoD hardcore mode..

When you make all the weapons super strong, there becomes less and less of a point to have armor at all.

(Consider the maxim of your argument; it suggests that making every weapon into a 1-shot-kill weapon, would be okay, and if it doesn't, then where does it stop?)
-------------------------

One needs to balance the weapons to be effective, but not overly effective, otherwise one need not bother with armor.

[Pando]

Livewyr, on 01 June 2013 - 03:45 AM, said:

Pando, the problem with that logic: the logic of making all the weapons overpowered, is that you end up playing CoD hardcore mode..

When you make all the weapons super strong, there becomes less and less of a point to have armor at all.

(Consider the maxim of your argument; it suggests that making every weapon into a 1-shot-kill weapon, would be okay, and if it doesn't, then where does it stop?)
-------------------------

One needs to balance the weapons to be effective, but not overly effective, otherwise one need not bother with armor.

I've never suggested making other weapons overpowered or super strong even. I said balanced. With changes to the video-game such as HSR and the missile fixing issue, things need to be looked at once again. Don't get me started on "we didn't want to make DHS a required upgrade".

You're reading to much into things. COD hardcore? Little much if you ask me. How about some questions to put things into perspective.

What is the most played map last month?

What was the "meta" that month?

What was the most played map the month before that?

What was the "meta" that month?

What was the most played map the month before that?

What was the "meta" that month?

What was the "meta during the first month when "open beta" went live?

What weapon system was fixed (and bugged) this patch?

When any weapon system is fixed, do we see the "meta" change?

I'll name just a few times I've seen the meta change;


Closed beta - before medium lasers heat increased; swaybacks and fatbacks flourish (energy meta)
Open beta - Artemis released, 4 man groups boat LRMs and SRMs; splatcats flourish (missile meta)
Open beta - Repair and Re-arm removed; anyone can afford Artemis; splatcats flourish (missile meta)
Open beta - Missile damage reduced and PPC heat reduced; snipers flourish (ppc/erppc) (energy meta)

Fact is weapon balance is not perfect but we're getting there. We've made positive and negative progress in my opinion since closed beta. The farther left in my mechbay I go, the older the battlemech loadouts and the older the meta. The farther right I go in my mechbay...snipers.

Edited by Pando, 01 June 2013 - 04:17 AM.

[SixBottles]

Pando, on 01 June 2013 - 03:37 AM, said:

Like i said, don't break a working weapon system to fix "BAND-AID" other weapon systems that are borked.

You need to talk to competitive players more often. I would not use PPC's because ER's are worth their weight in gold for having no minimum range and a greater maximum range. There are exceptions, but ER's are almost always worth taking over regulars.

Most pulse lasers need some heat adjustments.

i dont agree. you cannot effectivly boat 4 erPPC's. the main problem aren't erPPC's, regular PPC's boats with gauß combo are.

and its not a working system. boating is a major problem. it doesnt matter if its last year (medlas) last months (srm's), last month (poptart ppc's), last week (lrm's) or today (ppc's again). boating and alpha'ing should be penalized with slightly increased peak heat.

also the maplayout is an important matter. maps like canyon just invite to hide behind a rock and sniper away... in those cases heat doesnt really matter... because u shoot and then run behind cover to cool off.

[Nebelfeuer]

Pando, on 01 June 2013 - 04:13 AM, said:

Fact is weapon balance is not perfect but we're getting there. We've made positive and negative progress in my opinion since closed beta. The farther left in my mechbay I go, the older the battlemech loadouts and the older the meta. The farther right I go in my mechbay...snipers.

The only way to prevent this efectively would be to restrict customisation options in mechlab(slotlimitation along with the e-b-m classification: e.g. If a mecharm has 3 medium lasers in stock variant you could either change them down to 3 small lasers or to one large+1medium/smalll or to 1 PPC - a single AC 20 slot could be downsised down to 1 MG but would not allow for multiple smaller ballistic weapons). More freedom is obviously a waste since most people play the same few builds anyway. that they think most effective. The restriction would force them into more diversity and utility though and make mechdesigns feel more differend.

Edited by Nebelfeuer, 01 June 2013 - 04:52 AM.

[Livewyr]

What I'm saying is... PPCs/ERPPCs are negative progress.

They aren't balanced, they have too many strengths and not one real weakness.
To suggest that they're ok, and that other weapons should be buffed to their level lifts the whole boat.

(Also, splatcats flourished until Alpine came out.. then they died horrible little boring earless deaths to PPCS and gauss- which is how it should be.)

I've been here as long as you have, I've seen the meta shifts, but up until the PPC snipers, it has been because of something else.

Example:
Swaybacks flourished because of the ML heat buff *and* the lack of engine restrictions. (117kph hunchback *blech*)
Then it was the Gauss K2 meta, because mediums were no longer light-speed assault mechs *and* gauss had almost no weaknesses.
Then Artemis LRMs briefly ruled (about a month) since everyone was in assaults and slower stuff, which missiles love.
(Streakcats, AC20 Cats, Gauss cats- those all remained throughout as steady side mechs)
Then the dark times: ECM
Rise of the Brawler (including the splat cat) vs the LRM Stalker (The ECM/LRM lottery, where you won if you had ECM or ECM and missiles. If you *just* had missiles, you lost.)
Then PPCs got the uber buff and Alpine was released. Splatcats and assault brawlers went away- they can't compete with something that is overpowered.. *and* ranged.

Unless PPCs are changed back to higher heat, they will remain the meta. They're
long ranged
lightweight
Small
medium/high heat
instant damage
Unlimited/No Ammo
No ammo explosion.
No weapon explosion.

No other weapon can boast that, or even touch it.

[Pando]

Livewyr, on 01 June 2013 - 04:53 AM, said:

What I'm saying is... PPCs/ERPPCs are negative progress.

They aren't balanced, they have too many strengths and not one real weakness.
To suggest that they're ok, and that other weapons should be buffed to their level lifts the whole boat.

(Also, splatcats flourished until Alpine came out.. then they died horrible little boring earless deaths to PPCS and gauss- which is how it should be.)

I've been here as long as you have, I've seen the meta shifts, but up until the PPC snipers, it has been because of something else.

Example:
Swaybacks flourished because of the ML heat buff *and* the lack of engine restrictions. (117kph hunchback *blech*)
Then it was the Gauss K2 meta, because mediums were no longer light-speed assault mechs *and* gauss had almost no weaknesses.
Then Artemis LRMs briefly ruled (about a month) since everyone was in assaults and slower stuff, which missiles love.
(Streakcats, AC20 Cats, Gauss cats- those all remained throughout as steady side mechs)
Then the dark times: ECM
Rise of the Brawler (including the splat cat) vs the LRM Stalker (The ECM/LRM lottery, where you won if you had ECM or ECM and missiles. If you *just* had missiles, you lost.)
Then PPCs got the uber buff and Alpine was released. Splatcats and assault brawlers went away- they can't compete with something that is overpowered.. *and* ranged.

Unless PPCs are changed back to higher heat, they will remain the meta. They're
long ranged
lightweight
Small
medium/high heat
instant damage
Unlimited/No Ammo
No ammo explosion.
No weapon explosion.

No other weapon can boast that, or even touch it.

Even with their heat reverted back they will still be the meta. Why? Because my 8's or soon 12s group loaded with ERs and reg PPC's will decimate anything within range.

PPC's were the meta before the heat reduction.

So, if PPC's were reverted back, what weapon system would be the next FoTM in your brain?

[Livewyr]

Pando, on 01 June 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

Even with their heat reverted back they will still be the meta. Why? Because my 8's or soon 12s group loaded with ERs and reg PPC's will decimate anything within range.

PPC's were the meta before the heat reduction.

So, if PPC's were reverted back, what weapon system would be the next FoTM in your brain?

Well, with PPC boat meta nerfed. (Meltdown for alpha 3-6PPCs + High heat damage they're talking about) Gauss will make more of a return (though it'll never be FoTM again since it's a giant glass explosive) and with Gauss being too big, heavy, and fragile to boat, and PPCs generating too much (dangerious) heat to boat, I think you'll see the return of UAC5s, AC10s, maybe even AC5s.

No doubt, they're still be people putting 2 PPCs and 1 Gauss on mechs and playing them that way- but that's fine.. 35 damage is pitiful for the weight and danger that would cost, and they wouldn't be able to use it to brawl for crap or pin down an entire area.. since they wouldn't be firing it as often...

I think you would see much more diversity in the weapons. (With SRMs fixed, and the removal of constant cover requirement, games would get more interesting. DPS could matter again, UAC5s could make a come combat, AC5s too, missiles would be useful again since it wouldn't be a death sentence for the missile mech or the spotter to sight for missiles.

Missiles would be viable again.
Brawlers could survive long enough to brawl.
Snipers can still have a drastic impact, without running the whole show with sniping orbital strikes.

That is what I envision happening (assuming missiles all around get fixed, if not, you'll see the return of AC10s and UAC5s themselves..AC20 never went away.)

[Xeno Phalcon]

Just double the size of ERppc/PPC in terms of crit slots. This not only lowers the number of heat sinks a boater can take (by about 3-4 DHS in the case of stalkers) it also makes them more vulnerable to destruction and also makes it impractical or impossible for some mechs to mount large amounts of ppcs in a single section of the body. (IE highlanders would be downgraded to 2 ERPPCs instead of 3).

To me this seems the most plausible approach, it lets people who really want to take 3-4 ERppccs do it and still do well, but at the same time makes it less forgiving if they make a mistake so it should cut down on the flavor of the month players while not excessively punishing people who can shoot a spider in the face from 1000 meters as its jumping through the air.

[Accursed Richards]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 May 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

Yes hey are, but as I have said a few times it is taking 6 PPC to do the damage 3 PPCs did for 29-30 years. 3 PPCs from an Awesome was supposed to be the very definition of deadly. Bu we have to use 4-6 to get that same level of lethality. Would it stop people from mounting 6 PPC? Maybe.

Except that in TT, the PPC's wouldn't all instantly converge on the center torso, they'd probably do damage to different bits of the mech.

Nebelfeuer, on 01 June 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:

Damagewise 4x AC5/UAC5 cataphract and jager are a lot better then the builds you listed (nearly 10 dps substained) while the performance of ppcs falls of after having 2 due to heat. Basically having more then 2 PPC is a waste of tonage since you may get a lot of pinpont dmg but you loose substained dps and flexibility to cope with a lot of situations.

Don't forget that the PPC mech can deliver the damage and the immediately look away so as not to expose their CT, the DPS mech has to keep looking at the target. And being able to deliver that damage instantly is better because the target needs to be visible for so much less time.

[Livewyr]

xeno, they would still out class everything else, in every other category.


and that would break stock mechs.

[Pando]

Livewyr, on 01 June 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

Well, with PPC boat meta nerfed. (Meltdown for alpha 3-6PPCs + High heat damage they're talking about) Gauss will make more of a return (though it'll never be FoTM again since it's a giant glass explosive) and with Gauss being too big, heavy, and fragile to boat, and PPCs generating too much (dangerious) heat to boat, I think you'll see the return of UAC5s, AC10s, maybe even AC5s.

No doubt, they're still be people putting 2 PPCs and 1 Gauss on mechs and playing them that way- but that's fine.. 35 damage is pitiful for the weight and danger that would cost, and they wouldn't be able to use it to brawl for crap or pin down an entire area.. since they wouldn't be firing it as often...

I think you would see much more diversity in the weapons. (With SRMs fixed, and the removal of constant cover requirement, games would get more interesting. DPS could matter again, UAC5s could make a come combat, AC5s too, missiles would be useful again since it wouldn't be a death sentence for the missile mech or the spotter to sight for missiles.

Missiles would be viable again.
Brawlers could survive long enough to brawl.
Snipers can still have a drastic impact, without running the whole show with sniping orbital strikes.

That is what I envision happening (assuming missiles all around get fixed, if not, you'll see the return of AC10s and UAC5s themselves..AC20 never went away.)

What world are you living in? The best meta competitive snipers utilize 2 ERPPC and 1 GR. So, your theory is to make all the trash builds trash and keep the competitive poptarts competitive? Then, that's supposed to swing the power balance to LRMs and AC5/10s L O L.

[Livewyr]

Pando, on 01 June 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

What world are you living in? The best meta competitive snipers utilize 2 ERPPC and 1 GR. So, your theory is to make all the trash builds trash and keep the competitive poptarts competitive? Then, that's supposed to swing the power balance to LRMs and AC5/10s L O L.

Because right now, firing 2 PPCs/ERPPCs generates 16/22 heat, instead of 20/26 heat, and the heat-scale doesn't punish multiple alphas of that.. there is no punishment for firing that over and over until shutdown.. So those builds can fairly effectively brawl.

Put the heat back, and give penalties for high heat, and you will see them start being very concerned about brawlers and DPS weapons...

You need to think about more than one thing at a time to understand the world I'm living in. Until then, your mockery just backfires.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Livewyr, on 01 June 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

xeno, they would still out class everything else, in every other category.


and that would break stock mechs.

I didnt say it was a perfect fix, but far as im aware the only stock mech that would get effected by this would be the AWS-9M.

[Pando]

Livewyr, on 01 June 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Because right now, firing 2 PPCs/ERPPCs generates 16/22 heat, instead of 20/26 heat, and the heat-scale doesn't punish multiple alphas of that.. there is no punishment for firing that over and over until shutdown.. So those builds can fairly effectively brawl.

Put the heat back, and give penalties for high heat, and you will see them start being very concerned about brawlers and DPS weapons...

You need to think about more than one thing at a time to understand the world I'm living in. Until then, your mockery just backfires.

My mockery huh. Tell you what. Put us on any map in any 1v1 or team situation, increase my heat, give me my 2 ERPPC 1GR will eat you alive with your ac10s and uac/5's or even better uac/2's or LRM's haha.

**edited

One thing, I don't overheat and shut down. Neither do my buddies . I'm not concerned about brawlers and dps weapons because they are trash.

Edited by Pando, 01 June 2013 - 07:20 AM.