32 replies to this topic

[Catnap]

You shouldn't die, that seems obvious.
But time and again players deploy suicidal strategies in their games. Why?

Maybe you've just got a new mech, you've just gotten into the game, and you want to fire all your guns. You can't deal damage without having the enemy in your crosshairs, right? Or maybe that Stalker is all out of torso armor, and you think you can alpha it down easily. It makes PERFECT sense to move straight on the enemy.

Except that's not how things play out. Charging ahead your new mech maybe gets one enemy in it's crosshairs, but it gets in the crosshairs of three enemies. Guess who goes down first.
And trying to alpha the stalker, well maybe the first alpha lands on a side torso, the next one on the other, and as you've by then taken more damage than you thought you would, you get anxious and fire off a third much too quick. Then? Overheat. And you get swarmed by the Stalker's teammates. It just happens. And it's just why survival should be the first objective in most any mech fighting situations.

Now you might disagree with the above. And obviously sometimes calculated risk taking is required, that's what the game is all about. But most of the time, your survival will benefit the team much more than the few points of damage you can deal before going down in a blaze of glory.

Why?

1) Because the mere presence of any mech will make the enemies alter their plan, make them move more slow and careful, and permit you to possibly outmaneuver them.

2) Safety in numbers. An assault or a heavy mech might happily charge straight at most any lighter mech, but only a careless pilot would go solo against two. Moreover, fighting many against one doesn't just inflict more damage to the target, it'll make effective torso twisting and cover use that much tougher for the target. An outnumbered pilot is also more likely to panic and fire too quick, overheat, and get stomped. What I'm saying is that fighting many against one brings greater benefits than just the raw mass DPS.

3) The opportunities will present themselves. Most times there's no need to sneak off shoddy shots from a vulnerable position. Just moving with the team, keeping covered and cozy as possible, you'll get a good shot lined up in no time. Retreat is also a perfectly valid option, no rule anywhere dictates that MWO games have to be all about pitched sniper battles; pull back, invite the enemy to move forward from their perch positions.



It's just something I myself have been thinking about, because I'm a ****** pilot whose first instinct is to go PEWPEWPEWDAKKAPEWPEWPEW. It's why I've mostly played Atlases.

[Tahribator]

If I know I can trade my Trebuchet for a Cataphract, why not? As long as you're trading efficiently, there's nothing wrong with being suicidal. Plus, you get to profit immensely if you can make it out alive(jumpjets, I love them).

Now, there are other types of "suicidals" who actually don't realize they are going for their death. Like an Atlas getting excited and going over the ridge in Frozen Colony only to get instakilled. Don't be that guy. On the other hand there are also the "scared shitless" guys, who hang back in fear of getting damaged and end up going against 8 enemy mechs because their team got rolled. Again, don't be this guy.

Trade armor for damage. This is also why poptarts are OP, they do not trade anything as they don't expose themselves in order to shoot. Only get really defensive if you're about to die. Even if your Cataphract is bright red, as long as you're alive, you're still supporting your team with 30 tons of weapons.

[Cubivorre]

Tahribator, on 31 May 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

If I know I can trade my Trebuchet for a Cataphract, why not? As long as you're trading efficiently, there's nothing wrong with being suicidal.

Spoken like a true chess player.

[Koniving]

Catnap, on 31 May 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

You shouldn't die, that seems obvious.
But time and again players deploy suicidal strategies in their games. Why?

Koniving, on 31 May 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

• Sometimes you must sacrifice yourself so the team may win.

A recent match of mine had an enemy team of overwhelming missile superiority. We lost two within seconds of the first volley. It was Caustic Valley. Me and my team of 3 (plus 2 pugs who were frightened by the missiles) went around the Caldera, looped behind the advancing LRM assaults, and though spotted instantly I charged head-on literally ramming their Highlander and freaking out their twin stalkers. I put all 4 large lasers into his chest, fired my twin streaks, and overridden after the first shutdown. This drew the attention of all 8 enemy mechs who rushed to take me out. It allowed my team to get in close. I self-destructed delivering the finishing blow to the Highlander. My team was too close for the Stalkers to defend themselves, leaving their team with only a heavy, 2 mediums, and 2 lights. With the stalkers now unable to use their main firepower, my team butchered them. The cheesebuild Cataphract 3-D was the main focus of the team and he didn't last long. This left the other mechs who could not stand to our remaining DDC (ECM destroyed early on due to sniper fire) and Misery or our Centurion and Hunchback. We also had a Jenner and a Raven 2x.

Living is always preferable. But sometimes to hesitate and live for a few more minutes is suicide in itself.

(Context: http://mwomercs.com/...-piloting-tips/ )

[OneEyed Jack]

It's a matter of balance. You need to be a threat, while limiting exposure to getting focus-fired.

Unfortunately, too many people don't have a clue how to manage that, even those that have been playing awhile. So we get lemmings who rush forward and die without accomplishing anything, as if they're suiciding on purpose, and cowards who huddle behind a huddle behind a rock/hill/building, barely taking a shot until they're suddenly surrounded. The irony is that they tend to think they're actually better players for having lived longer.

Use cover, but don't just hide behind it. Try to line up shots that don't expose you to return fire from too many mechs at once.

[Yankee77]

Generally speaking, don't go off on your own, and avoid dueling unless you have massive superiority.

As the OP said, you never know what's around the corner. If you go off on your own only to get focused by 2 or more enemies, you're going to get the worse out of it.

Stick with others, and focus targets.

That doesn't mean always go around as a single blob, but if you're doing to do a flanking maneuver, be damn sure you have a buddy with you or 2 to support you... and try not to engage the main enemy force unless the rest of the team is also going to get involved. If your lance runs into the enemy blob, you SHOULD back away and go defensive.

This is Battletech, and Battletech is all about attrition. If you're facing an enemy with more firepower than you have, who is able to use that firepower better than you, don't try to duke it out. Back off, retreat, and wait for the rest of the group to come in.

I've seen far too many fights where one lance tries to snipe-duel an enemy blob while the other lance putzes around. You know how this ends: the lance trying to duke it out will suddenly start dropping like flies, and then you've got only 1 lance left to handle 7 or 8 enemy mechs.

So in short, if you don't have local superiority, don't maintain the engagement, not unless you KNOW the rest of your force is on its way to support you... and even then your job should be to just FIX the enemy in position: stay defensive, don't expose yourself to concentrated fire, and wait until the rest of your force shows up before really attacking in earnest. And if the rest of your group ISN'T coming, then break off and regroup. Maintaining contact will just get you attrited until your lance starts popping one by one because you've got all your torso armor stripped.

Thank you.

[Raso]

In my experience most of my losses are from when my team is so terrified of getting their precious mechs scratched that they all huddled together for comfort behind a hill letting enemy snipers take pot shots at them. The fear of death is useful to a point. But if you refuse to take your big, bad, Atlas into combat while some mediums and heavies make the charge because you're afraid that you might lose some of your 90-something center torso armor then you're doing something very wrong.

[PPO Kuro]

I see some great responses in this post, me like! This is exactly the thing I get most frustrated about. Dying in battle isn't a bad thing, but it should not happen when there is no gain for the team. Too many ppl think they are Rambo in a mech and charge the battle line.

The worst crime I still find ppl charging an entrenched enemy that has LRM boats, a few long range mechs and scouts with TAG over the open. When saying something about it I have been told to **** or you get the response of: "I'm here to shoot with lasers in a stompy stompy mech game". What those ppl forget, every casualty makes it that much harder to win.

I get the impression ppl don't look at the map or radar. Like canyon, if you start in the lower part of the map, going through the main canyon IMO isn't a smart move. It's kinda open and prone to ambushes from the side. You only need one good enemy scout to spot and you have a major problem. Mainly because from that position it takes about 10-20 seconds for the assault mech to get into semi cover.

But thankfully reading this post shows that there are sane Mechwarriors out there

Want to say more, but meh this isn't my native tong and I suck at expressing myself

Edited by PPO Kuro, 31 May 2013 - 07:49 AM.

[Catnap]

In response to all the posters who preferred a more aggressive approach. You raise valid points.
I did write the original post with the assumption that players would still try to make themselves useful somehow; promoting cowardly huddling certainly wasn't my idea.

Still, I'd like to add one thing to my case here: Always assume +1 enemy unless you're dealing with the literal last of them, or have perfect knowledge of their whereabouts otherwise.
Even if you think you can take on some enemy 1vs1, try to always consider if or not you can take on that enemy +Whatever else before engaging out of cover.

[Catnap]

Raso, on 31 May 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

In my experience most of my losses are from when my team is so terrified of getting their precious mechs scratched that they all huddled together for comfort behind a hill letting enemy snipers take pot shots at them. The fear of death is useful to a point. But if you refuse to take your big, bad, Atlas into combat while some mediums and heavies make the charge because you're afraid that you might lose some of your 90-something center torso armor then you're doing something very wrong.

Definitely.

Another consideration is one's role in the team. An assault mech is best suited for a tanking role. To be effective, an assault pilot will need to have the guts to, if necessary, spearhead a team charge, counting on their allies for support.
Likewise all other mechs will need the sense to follow and support charging assaults if it's at all sensible, otherwise it'll likely just be a lot of wasted tonnage.


What I'm getting at here is that TEAM EFFORTS are the key, and towards that, survival counts more than soloing.

[mailin]

One thing that I see too many times is brawlers charging the enemy head on and in clear view. Trying really, really hard to get within the 270m range of their srms. Meanwhile, they are taking damage from the enemys' erppcs, gausses and lrms. It just doesn't make sense. If you're in a brawler, you want to use cover as extra armor until you close with the enemy. If the enemy knows you're there and you take lrm hits, so be it. As long as you're also not taking direct fire too, charge ahead. If the enemy assaults move toward you, isn't that what you want? Once their team is separated, lights can do their work on the lrms, disrupting that fire and everybody else can focus on the assaults. Get in weapons range before exposing yourself and you will live longer.

Edited by mailin, 01 June 2013 - 12:25 PM.

[Jay Z]

It all depends on the situation. Most of the time staying alive is the aim.

However, in a Jenner, playing squirrel at the right time makes the other team focus on me instead of my team letting them get more shots off and close in. On conquest, staying alive is much more important as I need to be alive at the end if it comes down to cap.

In a Stalker, the longer I am alive, the more damage I can do (obvious). However, if the enemy is just camping and refuses to move. I will charge forward (after spamming team chat with "PUSH NOW" "PUSH PUSH PUSH"). Sure, I will die, but I will take enough of a beating to get my team into brawling range, and probably take down a couple mechs at the same time.

Basically, do what you have to to win. I am not that protective of my KDR (although I like keeping it above 2). Instead, I focus on win/loss and always work to improve that.

[LoveMaker]

Raso, on 31 May 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

In my experience most of my losses are from when my team is so terrified of getting their precious mechs scratched that they all huddled together for comfort behind a hill letting enemy snipers take pot shots at them. The fear of death is useful to a point. But if you refuse to take your big, bad, Atlas into combat while some mediums and heavies make the charge because you're afraid that you might lose some of your 90-something center torso armor then you're doing something very wrong.

As a light pilot i will keep with the team until they reach that notorious "hunker point" where they all hide and wait to get a long range free shot or two. eventually I will go round up a few overzealous enemies and lead them back to the group. More and more often I find myself dueling it out by myself while my freebirther teammates cower on the other side of a rindge 200 meters away until I either die or get targets crippled enogh for some hero Atlas to peak over and alpha strike for the win. The scout role is all but lost since you get ahead and target enemies waoiting for the LRMs that never come because noone wantsto give up their hiding spot until the other team is half dead.

[dak irakoz]

This encapsulates my viewpoint.

[RuzzBot]

Quote

Another consideration is one's role in the team. An assault mech is best suited for a tanking role. To be effective, an assault pilot will need to have the guts to, if necessary, spearhead a team charge, counting on their allies for support.
Likewise all other mechs will need the sense to follow and support charging assaults if it's at all sensible, otherwise it'll likely just be a lot of wasted tonnage.

This. I play both Atlai and Jenners, and I see both. leading the charge with your atlas is Ok if the team supports you, but I've become a bit leary of going in first because everyone else can backup, and Atlai... just can't . People see more then one enemy and they backup, it can get really silly at times...

And in my Jenner, I'll go and give backup to a duelling/surrounded atlas, while all the cataphracts (those seem most prone to it for some reason) stand a km away and shout encouragingly... And the first guy to say that a Jenner can't contribute to a straight-up fight: I hit with 6 mlas, and I'll focus wherever my teammates are shooting (I have target acquistion module, so I know where to hit). trust me, a light can contribute pretty well .

Edited by RuzzBot, 31 May 2013 - 11:17 PM.

[PEEFsmash]

The mentality of "don't die" is what encourages people to take LRM boat atlases and be absolutely worthless and waste 100 tons in a drop.

Playing conservative is one thing, but focusing on not dying is a ticket to loserville.

[Mizore]

LoveMaker, on 31 May 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

More and more often I find myself dueling it out by myself while my freebirther teammates cower on the other side of a rindge 200 meters away until I either die or get targets crippled enogh for some hero Atlas to peak over and alpha strike for the win. The scout role is all but lost since you get ahead and target enemies waoiting for the LRMs that never come because noone wantsto give up their hiding spot until the other team is half dead.

Yeah, that's exactly the sitiuation I experience very often... when I'm in a fast mech trying to distract the enemies, so that my team could easily pick out several enemy mechs, I usually find myself left alone and most of my other mates are anxiously hiding behind cover.

Even when I'm in a 4-man group and using Teamspeak I can often see this behaviour.
My mates are rather hiding themselves or prefer staying somewhere in the back and when my distraction is over because I got killed after half a minute, then they finally get out of their holes... just to get slaughtered, because the distraction (me) is gone and the enemy now is gathered at one spot, ready to focus one after the other >.<

Edited by Mizore, 31 May 2013 - 11:52 PM.

[Alymbic]

I am happy to spend my life for the betterment of the team.

However, I do not like to waste it.

[Aslena]

After sitting for a while taking pot shots from poptarts, while our poptarts take shots back I decide I'd rather die than sit waiting for the game to end...

[Catnap]

It all comes down to gameplay realities, guys.

I LIKE to play aggressive, make swift moves, close to a comfy brawl; a good fight is more important than winning IMO.
But on the other hand, I don't like getting my team steamrolled either.

What you are describing here is teammate behavior that doesn't support a brawl attack, distractions, or anything. That's a REALITY. Teams often suck at making use of tactical advantages. Assaulters, scouts, and distractions often get left alone.

And THAT is just why not dying should be a focus, especially in the early 5 minutes of the game. Yes the game will be slower, and sometimes downright frustrating, but if you charge ahead without the team giving proper support, then you've likely just wasted your tonnage.

A good player reads his own teammates movements as much as he reads enemy movements. If it looks like your team wants a lame *** sniperfest, then that's the reality you have to play with if you want to win.