30 replies to this topic

[Jman5]

Carrioncrows, on 01 June 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

I've got a HBK-4SP, it sits there because mounting LRM's on it is impractical due to the way AMS works. You can take it out for a spin with some large lasers but you'll be lucky to make it into medium range most games without getting a torso blown off, even if you do make into medium range your still facing off against a mech with x2 ERPPC's and a Gauss with your 4 medium lasers and x2 SRM6's (that hit like a wet noodle)

Guess which one generates less heat? Yup, the 2 ERPPC and Gauss is more heat efficient and can throw more alpha salvo's before coming close to shutting down.

4 Meds + 2 SRM6 = 28 heat a salvo every 4 secs.
ERPPC + Gauss = 22 heat a salvo every 4 secs.

You make a compelling argument. Even though your heat numbers are a little off (laser cooldown doesn't kick in until after the beam finishes), your point still stands that the hunchback weapons run hotter than the ERPPC/Gauss build.

• 4ML + 2 SRM 6 = 6 HPS (or 24 heat over 4 seconds)
  
• 2ERPPC + Guass = 5.75 HPS (or 23 heat over 4 seconds)

However, it's probably a bit misleading to leave it at that There are other differences as well.

The tonnage difference, to put it lightly, is massive.

• 4 ML/2 SRM6 = 10 tons (12 w/ artemis)
  
• 2 ERPPC/ Gauss = 29 tons

With all that excess tonnage, you're free to add enough DHS to mitigate the slight heat advantage the jump sniper has out the door.

hbk has about an 8.5% DPS advantage over the jump sniping build, but the increase precision and range puts this squarely in the jump sniper's column.

Finally, there is a slot discrepancy between the two. HBK loadout is 8 slots (10 w/ artemis), while the jump sniper loadout is 13.

Obviously, I'm not trying to imply that hunchbacks are running around owning Cataphracts and Highlanders. However, I think it has more to do with the fact that they simply outweigh you by 20-40 tons. 35 damage hurts a lot more on a hunchback than it does on a Highlander.

[DemonRaziel]

With the proposed loadout, I, as most others, suggest the 4SP. The lower height make it a bit more hard to hit and the hard point layout is spread out better over the whole 'Mech.

While you can make a decent brawler with TBT, it's more handy as a missile platform or as a high speed hit-and-run build utilizing an XL engine. Your build includes none of that, so I can hardly see any advantages to going 3C over 4SP. Plus the also 3C lacks the JJs some TBT variants have (so no advantage over the 4SP in this matter either).

Edited by DemonRaziel, 02 June 2013 - 10:18 AM.

[Carrioncrows]

Jman5, on 01 June 2013 - 09:56 PM, said:

You make a compelling argument. Even though your heat numbers are a little off (laser cooldown doesn't kick in until after the beam finishes), your point still stands that the hunchback weapons run hotter than the ERPPC/Gauss build.

• 4ML + 2 SRM 6 = 6 HPS (or 24 heat over 4 seconds)
  
• 2ERPPC + Guass = 5.75 HPS (or 23 heat over 4 seconds)

However, it's probably a bit misleading to leave it at that There are other differences as well.

The tonnage difference, to put it lightly, is massive.

• 4 ML/2 SRM6 = 10 tons (12 w/ artemis)
  
• 2 ERPPC/ Gauss = 29 tons

Medium Laser = 5 heat
SRM6 = 4 heat.
X4 Medium lasers = 20 heat
x2 SRM6's = 8 heat
x4 Mediums + x2 SRM6's = 28 heat with both having a cycle time of 4 secs, or 3.5 secs for the SRM6.

ERPPC = 11 heat.
Gauss = Zero heat
X2 ERPPC's = 22 heat.

And yes the HBK could "Technically" out DPS the heavier mech, it doesn't "Actually" work out that way. Mostly because SRM's are so lack luster right now, their spread makes it difficult to land all six missiles let a lone in a concentrated location. So yes you could technically out damage the heavier mech, you would still die as all 35 points of the heavier mech is hitting one location.

I know that's probably nit picking the finer details and we could go on with the back and forth and what-ifs,

Personally I fee like the HBK has really been outclassed by the TBT in ALL aspects.

Honestly my favorite Brawler is the TBT-7k, I pack a AC20 x4 tons of ammo, x2 LRM5's x1 ton of ammo and 2 medium lasers.

It just boils down to what you like.

[Bishop Steiner]

Carrioncrows, on 02 June 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

Medium Laser = 5 heat
SRM6 = 4 heat.
X4 Medium lasers = 20 heat
x2 SRM6's = 8 heat
x4 Mediums + x2 SRM6's = 28 heat with both having a cycle time of 4 secs, or 3.5 secs for the SRM6.

ERPPC = 11 heat.
Gauss = Zero heat
X2 ERPPC's = 22 heat.

And yes the HBK could "Technically" out DPS the heavier mech, it doesn't "Actually" work out that way. Mostly because SRM's are so lack luster right now, their spread makes it difficult to land all six missiles let a lone in a concentrated location. So yes you could technically out damage the heavier mech, you would still die as all 35 points of the heavier mech is hitting one location.

I know that's probably nit picking the finer details and we could go on with the back and forth and what-ifs,

Personally I fee like the HBK has really been outclassed by the TBT in ALL aspects.

Honestly my favorite Brawler is the TBT-7k, I pack a AC20 x4 tons of ammo, x2 LRM5's x1 ton of ammo and 2 medium lasers.

It just boils down to what you like.

My 7K packs a pair of Streaks, an ER PPC and a UAC5. But makes a rather good hit and run platform, able to hit way above it's paper numbers and at all ranges. Might try the LRMs out, now that they are useful again.

[Jman5]

Carrioncrows, on 02 June 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

Medium Laser = 5 heat
SRM6 = 4 heat.
X4 Medium lasers = 20 heat
x2 SRM6's = 8 heat
x4 Mediums + x2 SRM6's = 28 heat with both having a cycle time of 4 secs, or 3.5 secs for the SRM6.

ERPPC = 11 heat.
Gauss = Zero heat
X2 ERPPC's = 22 heat.

And yes the HBK could "Technically" out DPS the heavier mech, it doesn't "Actually" work out that way. Mostly because SRM's are so lack luster right now, their spread makes it difficult to land all six missiles let a lone in a concentrated location. So yes you could technically out damage the heavier mech, you would still die as all 35 points of the heavier mech is hitting one location.

I know that's probably nit picking the finer details and we could go on with the back and forth and what-ifs,

Personally I fee like the HBK has really been outclassed by the TBT in ALL aspects.

Honestly my favorite Brawler is the TBT-7k, I pack a AC20 x4 tons of ammo, x2 LRM5's x1 ton of ammo and 2 medium lasers.

It just boils down to what you like.

Just so everyone is clear:
Medium laser is 4 heat (Maybe you're looking at the damage row which is 5)
The SRM 6 has a 4 second cooldown (streaks and srm 2s are 3.5 though)
and the Gauss Rifle is 1 heat

Source (scroll down to the weapons toward the bottom):
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/

Or you can check it out in the mechlab in-game.

[Johnny Reb]

Hotthedd, on 31 May 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

If you are going to use the exact same loadout, my vote would be for the Hunchie.

It is smaller and generally seen as less of a threat.

However, the treb 3C can go 139 kph with that xl390 the hunch can't.

edit: I sold my Huncie 4-P cause I feel the BJ-1X does it better. However, these two mechs are valuable in there own right and dont really stack well against each other. The Treb 3C and Cent D are the fast heavy armored meds that go 139 kph w tweak. The Huncie 4SP is more of a close in brawler to support the heavies, not a striker or heavy scout. I personally still own both and have no plans of selling either.

Edited by Johnny Reb, 02 June 2013 - 09:40 PM.

[Carrioncrows]

Jman5, on 02 June 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

Just so everyone is clear:
Medium laser is 4 heat (Maybe you're looking at the damage row which is 5)
The SRM 6 has a 4 second cooldown (streaks and srm 2s are 3.5 though)
and the Gauss Rifle is 1 heat

Source (scroll down to the weapons toward the bottom):
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/

Or you can check it out in the mechlab in-game.

Your right I apologize.

[hrar]

I run a 3c with 2 streak 2's, 4 med lazers, a ams and max armor, I rip hunchbacks apart because of my speed 380xl (134ish with tweak) I say the speed advantage is better then the smaller hunch profile. I know its not your build, but it plays close to the same and you mnight want to give it a try.

[Carrioncrows]

If you are really dead set on making a Mech with 4 Mediums and 2 SRM6's...then beleive it or not I would suggest going with the X-5 Cicada Hero mech.

I run x4 meds, x2 srm6's (x3 tons of ammo), 12 DHS and a 300 XL - 138 KPH with speed tweak. Smaller, sleeker, faster.

[Hotthedd]

Johnny Reb, on 02 June 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

However, the treb 3C can go 139 kph with that xl390 the hunch can't.

edit: I sold my Huncie 4-P cause I feel the BJ-1X does it better. However, these two mechs are valuable in there own right and dont really stack well against each other. The Treb 3C and Cent D are the fast heavy armored meds that go 139 kph w tweak. The Huncie 4SP is more of a close in brawler to support the heavies, not a striker or heavy scout. I personally still own both and have no plans of selling either.

Fair enough, but I was comparing apples to apples, i.e. the EXACT same build. Putting in a bigger engine changes the discussion.

Carrioncrows, on 02 June 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

If you are really dead set on making a Mech with 4 Mediums and 2 SRM6's...then beleive it or not I would suggest going with the X-5 Cicada Hero mech.

I run x4 meds, x2 srm6's (x3 tons of ammo), 12 DHS and a 300 XL - 138 KPH with speed tweak. Smaller, sleeker, faster.

Again, it is not the same build. One less laser, bigger XL engine.

It is a fine build, but I find that the Cicada's huge CT becomes a drawback in the age of CT-seeking LRMs. In the hands of a skilled pilot it is deadly, but again, apples to oranges.

[John MatriX82]

I personally got rid of my 3C, a 5N is a superior brawler with more torso twist and shifts the ct hardpoint to the LA, making it better for multiple medium lasers and for tracking fast targets. Then truly viable XL builds on trebs never go beyond 300's for me, so since each one can get to 325 it was useless for me to have another copy, with worsened torso twist and that awkward ct energy.

Nevertheless, HBK 4SP remains superior, this because when you go brawling you can't go XL in either of the two (so engine ranges can't be that higher than 260/265 making the HBK smaller engine limit not a big deal) and the TBT is taller, the RT is rather big as well as the left arm, due to the big missile box. Not only, but the TBT 3C is 1 energy hardpoint less than 4SP