17 replies to this topic

[John Clavell]

This needs to be reviewed IMHO. It feels like a reaction nerf dating back to the dual gauss K2 days and all the QQ'ing around it. I can understand the Catapult having a large head hit box, but it feels just too big right now for the current state of the game. Certainly as we've seen state-rewind coming into play. I really feel like there is a solid case to review this and give it some down sizing, even just taking it back down a few notches.

It could be that there was a desire to force the Catapult more into a heavy support role (which makes little sense considering it's actual movement and torso twisting stats), but it seems counter productive, certainly with the 3D in effect taking over as the primary sniper of choice.

It's an inter-connected thing, between the efficiencies of the mech it's self. Down to the weapon and game balance. IMHO the catapult has languished in the shadow of former nerfs based on where the game was months and months ago, it needs to be reviewed to bring this mech back into full relevance on the PVP scene.

[MeiSooHaityu]

It does seem like I am getting my head blown off more lately in the Cat, but I do think it can stay the same for now. I have a feeling that when it happens, it is due to PPCs or Gauss (high damage in a relatively concentrated location). I don't seem to suffer getting be-headed from any other type of weapon. In that case, I think the current hit box is fine.

[TungstenWall]

You should keep in mind that both Catapults and Jaggermechs are meant to be direct/indirect fire support. The big cockpits allow a greater field of view, an advantage over brawling mechs who must have small, narrow views as they are likely to be hit in their weak heads.
Yes i know both mechs can be fitted for brawling, but the original design is not meant to ever be so close.

When 12v12 is added, i can see both becoming more common, and both sitting at half max armor to fit more weapons as every mech on the team wont need to be/have the ability to brawl as they do now.

[Merky Merc]

TungstenWall, on 25 April 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

You should keep in mind that both Catapults and Jaggermechs are meant to be direct/indirect fire support. The big cockpits allow a greater field of view, an advantage over brawling mechs who must have small, narrow views as they are likely to be hit in their weak heads.

Then why does the Ctf have such a tiny head hit box. Or the hunchback, that 's supposed to be the urban brawler supreme and it's got a cockpit from a combine harvester, and yet tiny hitbox.

Catapults have been made very weak from the missile nerf, and the current super alpha strike hyper meta game isn't doing any favors when you can one shot them so consistently with a head shot.

[John Clavell]

TungstenWall, on 25 April 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

You should keep in mind that both Catapults and Jaggermechs are meant to be direct/indirect fire support. The big cockpits allow a greater field of view, an advantage over brawling mechs who must have small, narrow views as they are likely to be hit in their weak heads.
Yes i know both mechs can be fitted for brawling, but the original design is not meant to ever be so close.

When 12v12 is added, i can see both becoming more common, and both sitting at half max armor to fit more weapons as every mech on the team wont need to be/have the ability to brawl as they do now.

The visual appearance externally has little to do with the actual cockpit, they are already not 100% the same as they are visually represented. The cockpit hitbox of the jagermech falls well inline, it's no where near the same size as the Catapult and it's impossible to hit it if you turn your torso. The Catapult has the biggest head hit box out of all the mechs in the game, it can be hit from almost 180 degree forward arc. It's just totally disproportionate for what MWO is today over 4 - 5 months ago, more so with state-rewind.

[TungstenWall]

Merky Merc, on 25 April 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

Then why does the Ctf have such a tiny head hit box. Or the hunchback, that 's supposed to be the urban brawler supreme and it's got a cockpit from a combine harvester, and yet tiny hitbox.

Catapults have been made very weak from the missile nerf, and the current super alpha strike hyper meta game isn't doing any favors when you can one shot them so consistently with a head shot.

John Clavell, on 25 April 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

The visual appearance externally has little to do with the actual cockpit, they are already not 100% the same as they are visually represented. The cockpit hitbox of the jagermech falls well inline, it's no where near the same size as the Catapult and it's impossible to hit it if you turn your torso. The Catapult has the biggest head hit box out of all the mechs in the game, it can be hit from almost 180 degree forward arc. It's just totally disproportionate for what MWO is today over 4 - 5 months ago, more so with state-rewind.

The cataphract: "intended to stand toe-to-toe with an assault 'Mech and be as versatile as possible."

And as you said the Hunchback is a brawler, and that is why it has a small head hit box (or did you mean to say it was big?)

[Trey Mendus]

Before we continue this discussing. Lets review the in-game hitboxes for cockpits.

[John Clavell]

TungstenWall, on 25 April 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

The cataphract: "intended to stand toe-to-toe with an assault 'Mech and be as versatile as possible."

Let's leave Battletech fluff out of this. I'm talking about this from the perspective of making a decent computer game.

You can see a comparison in the spoiler to current hitboxes. The Catapult has the biggest hitbox of all heavies and assault mechs. And considering overall surface areas one of if not the largest in the game. But furthermore the problem lies in the design and location of the head hit box, it's location puts it right inline of fire when people are shooting at the centre torso.

It's pretty hard to even torso twist away to protect it's head, as you have ample hitbox to shoot at when your turning the torso away from incoming fire.

Spoiler

[Merky Merc]

TungstenWall, on 25 April 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

The cataphract: "intended to stand toe-to-toe with an assault 'Mech and be as versatile as possible."

And as you said the Hunchback is a brawler, and that is why it has a small head hit box (or did you mean to say it was big?)

I do not care about the fluff. I'm talking about visually both of those mechs have massive cockpits, but their hit boxes are much tinier. Some of the head hit boxes are so tiny in this game, in comparison to their cockpits, that headshots are nigh impossible. And yet we have the catapult who can be head shot consistently from the side, front, probably even the rear the way some damage skips to the other side of your mech on occasion. The maps are both too small and the weapon ranges too short for a mech to be specifically, an artillery mech.

[Royalewithcheese]

John Clavell, on 25 April 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

Let's leave Battletech fluff out of this. I'm talking about this from the perspective of making a decent computer game.

+1

IMO in practice a big head hitbox means two things: it's easier to punish a mech with a big head when it shuts down or moves predictably, and sometimes you get random kills on it when you're aiming a big alpha at center mass. I think the first one is great, the second one makes the game more random and is something I personally like but completely understand why some people are against.

[StealthAssassin]

I will say that, it is quite easy for me to strafe catapult's head hitboxes in a Jenner even. 2 or 3 passes, and you're headshotted. Shutdown, you're dead.

[DarkDevilDancer]

Recently bought a K2 as i decided to master catapults and the number one reason it dies is headshots.

Yes catas have the cockpit in a bad place and they are big to boot but i think to be fair their cockpits should not get hit more often than other mechs.

[Lee Ving]

I don't feel that the Catapult's head should be made smaller, I feel that almost all of the other mechs need it to be made larger.

It'd discourage people from sitting still with the knowledge that the chances of the enemy hitting 10 pixels worth of window is almost none.

I've never found a catapult silly enough to make this mistake; why encourage it with everything else?

[Zakie Chan]

Catapult hitbox is about the same as the hunchback and centurion. In my opinion the hunchback is the easiest headshot. Of course those pilots who dont move on a hilltop, run straight at enemies and dont torso twist to absorb damage and hide vitals are the victims of headshots...

A catapult does have a large head hit box, but so do other mechs. Play smart and I guarantee you will get your head taken off much less often

[LCRacerX]

I think the head-shot issue w/ the Cat is not the size, but has more to do w/ the placement. It's just about dead-center, whereas almost all the others are high in the overall location of the mech.

Scroll through here: http://mwomercs.com/...x-localisation/ & check it out. That coupled w/ the size & it's easy to head-shot a Cat.

At the end of the day, if you're trying to out-snipe a Jager, you'll probably lose because of this. So keep moving & don't present an easy shot!

[Furniture]

It's not simply that it is dead-center. The Cataphract's head is dead-center and it doesn't get headshot left and right, and the window is just as big. The difference between the two is the hitbox size, since the Cataphract's was made smaller in response to the rampant headshots that were happening right after its release.

To give you an idea, after about 200 matches in my Catapult the past week or so, I've died more to headshots than I have to side torso destruction, and I run an XL engine. It's not that I'm sitting still either, I always strafe, sidestep, move around, and try to stay back from the front line. These kinds of moving headshots don't happen in any of my other mechs. In fact, most of my other mechs have never been killed with a headshot, whether they be snipers or brawlers.

[Furniture]

Zakie Chan, on 26 April 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

Catapult hitbox is about the same as the hunchback and centurion. In my opinion the hunchback is the easiest headshot. Of course those pilots who dont move on a hilltop, run straight at enemies and dont torso twist to absorb damage and hide vitals are the victims of headshots...

A catapult does have a large head hit box, but so do other mechs. Play smart and I guarantee you will get your head taken off much less often

I refer you to the pictures in the following quote. The mechs you named have larger hitboxes than something like the Cataphract, which has a ridiculously tiny hitbox. But the Catapult's hitbox is quite literally the biggest in the game, by far. Considering that the mech itself is also bigger than the ones you named, the situation is even worse. I don't know how people can continue to argue that the hitbox isn't way too big in comparison to the other mechs when the evidence is right in front of their eyes with nifty diagrams highlighting the hitboxes. Even the 100 ton Atlas has a hitbox that is about 1/10th the size of the Catapult's. There is a problem. Either the Catapult's hitbox needs to be smaller like everyone else, or everyone else's should be made bigger like the Catapults.

John Clavell, on 25 April 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

Spoiler

[Lee Ving]

Furniture, on 03 June 2013 - 02:50 AM, said:

It's not simply that it is dead-center. The Cataphract's head is dead-center and it doesn't get headshot left and right, and the window is just as big. The difference between the two is the hitbox size, since the Cataphract's was made smaller in response to the rampant headshots that were happening right after its release.

To give you an idea, after about 200 matches in my Catapult the past week or so, I've died more to headshots than I have to side torso destruction, and I run an XL engine. It's not that I'm sitting still either, I always strafe, sidestep, move around, and try to stay back from the front line. These kinds of moving headshots don't happen in any of my other mechs. In fact, most of my other mechs have never been killed with a headshot, whether they be snipers or brawlers.

Great job raising a 2 month old thread from the dead to tell us about your horrible damage avoidance skills.