194 replies to this topic

[Panimu]

Ningyo, on 26 June 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

yes Dimstog, every missile launcher in a location can fire a number of missiles up to the number of tubes in that location per volley.

False.

HBK-4J can only fire 20 missiles at a time, not 20 missiles per launcher., e.g. 2x LRM15 will fire as 20 and 10.

Also all the Highlanders have a 2nd 10 tube pod that comes online (represented graphically) to supplement the 20 tube LT pod if a 2nd launcher is added to that location.
NB: They stealth-fixed the bug whereby launchers would become swapped

This is what I meant, you can't trust lists like those on Smurfy. They are great resources, start from them, but you need to test what mechs actually do.

[Demuder]

Ningyo, on 26 June 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

yes Dimstog, every missile launcher in a location can fire a number of missiles up to the number of tubes in that location per volley.
.....

Panimu, on 26 June 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

False.

HBK-4J can only fire 20 missiles at a time, not 20 missiles per launcher., e.g. 2x LRM15 will fire as 20 and 10.

I see. Well, apparently the spreadsheet on smurfy although invaluable is not that accurate or maybe some mechs have bugs that have not been fixed yet. I know for a fact that in most mechs I have tried, the tubes on each location are shared between the launchers. I will take you word on the Awesome (and the other mechs you mention) though.

I have played around with several builds on the Awesome and Stalker with LRMs, but frankly, I think that putting more than 40-50 LRM on a mech means one has to give up so much in other equipment that they compromise the effectiveness of the build. I find a 40 LRM stalker with two large lasers a lot more efficient than a 60 LRM one.

Edited by dimstog, 26 June 2013 - 09:15 AM.

[Moira]

Ningyo, on 26 June 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

yes Dimstog, every missile launcher in a location can fire a number of missiles up to the number of tubes in that location per volley.

(I found my scissors again - Moira)

For the stalker or Jaggermech I would strongly recommend using 4-5xLRM5 instead as these leave lots of room for powerful direct fire weapons. And they have a very high rate of fire, and small spread even without artemis. (I really feel the stalker 5M with 3 ERPPC, and 5 LRM5 might even be competitive in the right hands : oh and like cobawful and Moira said against no AMS chainfiring the 5 LRM5 can be good for keeping people running though this is more a PUG thing competitive players don't stop moving while in the open anyway)

About that chainfiring LRM5's(you need 4 to do this)! Against AMS or not it's still pretty messy in the receiving end, constant red lights and woman voice in your ear - since you can non stop fire those LRM5's with bit to pacing them. Even I know that it's just LRM5's due the damage I took on Firebrand with AMS some still get through and dear god it messed my aiming totally. It's rather cheap and effective way to mess ppls up, that are using weapons of direct fire like a ER PPC =) and if the target doesnt have AMS cover or her own AMS it does pretty decent damage with Artemis messes ones aiming even more. And pile up the madness take ADV. Target Decay and you have really really potential tool in your mech. I use this method these days when I run with my STK, having 2x ER LL and TAG (STK-3H)on top. And honestly said the KDR and damage is better than just LRM50+.

Edit: minor typos

Edited by Moira, 26 June 2013 - 08:59 AM.

[blinkin]

dimstog, on 26 June 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

You can play your Hunchback any way you wish, but just because you want to squeeze 40 missiles through a 6 missile tube, doesn't justify demanding that it be efficient. You yourself are saying that your HBK is designed to harass. Well, you trade harassement for efficiency, pretty fair I think. Also, my C1 and C4 are doing about the same speed with a 30 and 40 salvo. Maybe you should try that and see the difference.

i wasn't demanding anything. i like how my hunchback runs. i think LRM are pretty close to where they should be (the ECM mess is another issue though). i would like to see a very minor 0.1 - 0.2 damage buff, but nothing major.

with respect to some of the rest of your post: 28 tons of PPC would be a 4 PPC, and yes i do think that should take down a target within 3 accurate volleys, BUT i also think heat penalties need to be much more harsh so that making 3 accurate volleys is much more risky.

i only skimmed your post and picked out some major points to respond to, because i just woke up and am a bit lazy.

[blinkin]

Panimu, on 26 June 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

This is a lesson I have learned, don't trust the spreadsheets. The 8R works as I said, I use it.

that is because the tube limits only seem to apply on any single launcher

example: jenner 7D

an SRM 6 will fire in 2 volleys 4/2, BUT 2x SRM 4 will fire in a single volley 8 missiles at once out of the 4 tubes.

i used to use this like a close range AC20 on my jenner back before the missiles were changed.

[Gallowglas]

Any more damage and we're back to people spending the entire match hugging cover, only ever briefly peeking out to snipe. That's not the game I personally want to play.

You have to think about more than just individual damage and kills with regard to LRM's. You have to also consider that you're suppressing enemy movement, adding damage to a mech that's being focused without having to be directly in front of it, providing more focused fire damage than would be possible otherwise due to spacial limitations, and/or disrupting the opponent's effective return fire. Any discussion that doesn't take those factors into account doesn't accurately reflect gameplay.

Personally, i think LRM's are just fine now. They're not overpowering, but they're powerful when you have a team that is willing/able to keep targets for you, either through getting into brawl range, or through use of dedicated and elusive scouts with TAG. I've seen coordinated teams rock with LRM's. I've seen individuals put out 500-800 damage with LRM's. Yes, I've seen poor results too, but there's plenty of that with any weapon.

Honestly, this community regularly takes exaggeration of weapon weaknesses too far. That's why we end up with problems like we currently have with PPC's, or like we previously had with streaks or SRM's. Suddenly we've overshot the mark and the whole meta changes.

Edited by Gallowglas, 26 June 2013 - 11:47 AM.

[Panimu]

blinkin, on 26 June 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

that is because the tube limits only seem to apply on any single launcher

example: jenner 7D

an SRM 6 will fire in 2 volleys 4/2, BUT 2x SRM 4 will fire in a single volley 8 missiles at once out of the 4 tubes.

i used to use this like a close range AC20 on my jenner back before the missiles were changed.

There are (at least) 3 types of rules.

1) The tube count is shared across all launchers, e.g. the HBK-4J
2) The tube count is used for each launcher, e.g. the AWS-8R
3) Each missile hard point has its own tube count, e.g. every HGN

[blinkin]

Panimu, on 26 June 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

There are (at least) 3 types of rules.

1) The tube count is shared across all launchers, e.g. the HBK-4J
2) The tube count is used for each launcher, e.g. the AWS-8R
3) Each missile hard point has its own tube count, e.g. every HGN

seems like it is starting to follow the same evolution as the modular weapons textures.

i know they have a lot on their plate, but if the developers don't do something about the disjointed systems that are collecting, it is going to snowball and they will reach a point where it is no longer feasible to fix them.

they might want to consider dedicating someone to going through and bringing all of the old mechs in line with all of the game mechanics on the new ones.

[Bobdolemite]

By the way just so you guys know this thread was the pre-patch damage. The pre and post patch damage comparison is available from the link on the main page (includes ARTEMIS and TAG as well)

After using the new LRMS for a couple weeks I think they are extremely close where they need to be. But for right now they are not useless, and can function as a decent support / area of denial weapon. My favorite of these is 4 x ALRM 15 with 6 ml on a STK-3F.

As far as future balancing I guess they could use a little more damage but I dont think this will happen till the "missiles hitting CT" issue has been addressed first. I am reticent to suggest any kind of buff or nerf since they usually over or under do this. In my dreams though they do a little more damage.......

(Also suggesting that LRMS should be balanced for not just single but group use is a bad argument - IMO balancing weapon systems is ONLY about single use - perceived abuse by players and teams overusing should be addressed as matchmaking or hardpoint related arguments)

Edited by Bobdolemite, 26 June 2013 - 12:52 PM.

[Panimu]

Bobdolemite, on 26 June 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

After using the new LRMS for a couple weeks I think they are extremely close where they need to be. But for right now they are not useless, and can function as a decent support / area of denial weapon. My favorite of these is 4 x ALRM 15 with 6 ml on a STK-3F.

Try using 2x LRM20 in the arms and 2xLRM10 in the sides. This will give you tighter firing (2 salvos).

Ideally you'd move to a 3H and use 2xLRM20 in arms and 2xLRM5 in sides (1 salvo)

[Zordicron]

dimstog, on 25 June 2013 - 01:32 AM, said:

LRM60 should not be possible, or at least should not be effective in the first place. Your mech carries 30 tubes, that should be a hint for you.

It's silly that you compare how low damage LRMs do against ppcs and gauss, especially when most of the community agrees that they are overpowered and should be fixed.

I'll agree with you though, that LRMs need a fix. Downing an Assault in three 60-LRM volleys is ridiculous, it should not be possible at all, considering how easy it is to acquire lock and rain death.

You have not read my post thoroughly enough.
I do not think LRM are low dmg. In fact, WHEN THEY WORK, they are flat out absurd- see example of killing 9M in slightly more then 2 salvos.
My point was, and has been for a few weeks: hit detection is FUBAR.
Also: While hit detection is FUBAR, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BALANCE ANY WEAPON.
I went on to describe why hit detection has made weapons like AC20 and gauss and PPC the high kings of the land vs multihit and hitscan weapons.

In short, the point of my post here, and in many other threads is this: NO ONE KNOWS where any weapon of any type is balanced at currently, but especially the missiles and lasers(and MG). It is NOT possible to know, because at any time, for any shot taken, there is a 0-100% hit detection loss, EVEN THOUGH at the end of the match, the damage was recorded in your stats. Even though it says you did 500 dmg with an LRM boat, it is entirely possible that 50 of it actually counted to damage your foe. Even though you fired 14 full duration LL blasts into the side torso or back of some hunchback or trebuchet, and it tells you you did hundreds of dmg points at the end of round, you failed to kill that hunchie or treb, because 0-100% of any one of those laser blasts did nothing.

I will say it again, as I have elsewhere. When someone at PGI stumbles across the solution to the hit detection bug, and suddenly all weapons deliver all the dmg every time, PGI will essentially need to start over on weapon balance. Lasers will beat out AC40 jagers on dmg and range and tonnage. The forums will flood with the QQ masses when I RUINATE YOU ALL with my 8R LURMPOCKOLYPSE, killing your mechs in 15 seconds in two salvos(including lazy flight time, waiting for the sun to fall out of the sky on you). I will core your Atlas in 3 salvos. I will one shot anything under 65 tons, unless you run so fast the LURMAGGEDON cloud cant track you quite well enough. when LRM60, at 66 dmg, always does 66 dmg, to your torso, or even all 3 torsos, it will blow you apart. Even if the first one doesnt, it will pel all your armor off and you will have to spend the rest of the match in hiding, because of ONE SALVO of missiles. And you wont be able to escape. You wont be able to fight back, because I will shoot you from indirect fire.

Maybe PGI will discover the bug, stomp it, and realize what is about to happen in closed internal testing. But, my past experiences with bugs of this nature is: they wont. They will fix it, and release the storm on the players. And there will be an exodus of old players when their year worth of playing AC40 Jagers and PPC stalkers is suddenly vaporized. But many will remain, and many new players will show up, but not right away. And the game will be better for it, despite the tragedy of oversight beforehand- if it survives the bad word of mouth from the disgruntled players.

[Demuder]

Eldagore, on 26 June 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

You have not read my post thoroughly enough.
I do not think LRM are low dmg. In fact, WHEN THEY WORK, they are flat out absurd- see example of killing 9M in slightly more then 2 salvos.
My point was, and has been for a few weeks: hit detection is FUBAR.
Also: While hit detection is FUBAR, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BALANCE ANY WEAPON.
I went on to describe why hit detection has made weapons like AC20 and gauss and PPC the high kings of the land vs multihit and hitscan weapons.

.....

I did read your post carefully, but I also seem to have missed you point entirely, so sorry for that :-)

I could argue that I think my damage - and I mean the effect I see in game, not just the summary after the match - is pretty consistent. I mean I more or less get the results I expected.

Of course, from what I can tell, hit detection is not consistent for everyone so maybe I am just lucky or I simply don't have a large enough sample - I have only grinded a 30 salvo C1 and a 40 salvo C4 and now I am mastering them. I have not played anything bigger than that.

I do agree that if missiles suffer from hit detection that much, they will need to be re-evaluated, at least damage wise.

[Zordicron]

dimstog, on 27 June 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

I did read your post carefully, but I also seem to have missed you point entirely, so sorry for that :-)

I could argue that I think my damage - and I mean the effect I see in game, not just the summary after the match - is pretty consistent. I mean I more or less get the results I expected.

Of course, from what I can tell, hit detection is not consistent for everyone so maybe I am just lucky or I simply don't have a large enough sample - I have only grinded a 30 salvo C1 and a 40 salvo C4 and now I am mastering them. I have not played anything bigger than that.

I do agree that if missiles suffer from hit detection that much, they will need to be re-evaluated, at least damage wise.

It is entirely possible the effects of this detection oddness are not as severe for you.

my brother lives in a much larger city then I do(lol, like 1000 times as big) and has a very solid, very high speed cable connection. He also sees hit detection errors, but, his overall reliability is somewhat higher. At least in the lower volume of hits type of stuff, like maybe a LRM30 salvo or 2 LL compared to myself doing the same. At higher salvo counts, or on something like a 4 LL mech loadout, his experience has not been as bad as mine, but has approached it more closely then on the lower count/hitscan stuff.

i do not think it is really a PING related thing so far as how high it is- rather, i think it has a lot more to do with how stable it is. I can have almost as low a ping as he does, but it can also fluctuate by 200 or more at any time. And i think that fluctuation, combined with whatever "packet loss" discon. bug fix they put in, has really made dmg totally all over the place.

So I think that while there are certainly a lot of players like myself with severe wierdness happening, there are also some like yourself, where it doesnt pan out quite as bad. Lower salvo counts are also not going to exagerate the effect as much. However, I also do not think that info really alters my point. It is still unreliable for datamine, it is still hard or impossible to gauge actual dmg and effectiveness because it is simply not uniform for everyone, all the time, every time.

[Zordicron]

dimstog, on 27 June 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

I did read your post carefully, but I also seem to have missed you point entirely, so sorry for that :-)

I could argue that I think my damage - and I mean the effect I see in game, not just the summary after the match - is pretty consistent. I mean I more or less get the results I expected.

Of course, from what I can tell, hit detection is not consistent for everyone so maybe I am just lucky or I simply don't have a large enough sample - I have only grinded a 30 salvo C1 and a 40 salvo C4 and now I am mastering them. I have not played anything bigger than that.

I do agree that if missiles suffer from hit detection that much, they will need to be re-evaluated, at least damage wise.

It is entirely possible the effects of this detection oddness are not as severe for you.

my brother lives in a much larger city then I do(lol, like 1000 times as big) and has a very solid, very high speed cable connection. He also sees hit detection errors, but, his overall reliability is somewhat higher. At least in the lower volume of hits type of stuff, like maybe a LRM30 salvo or 2 LL compared to myself doing the same. At higher salvo counts, or on something like a 4 LL mech loadout, his experience has not been as bad as mine, but has approached it more closely then on the lower count/hitscan stuff.

i do not think it is really a PING related thing so far as how high it is- rather, i think it has a lot more to do with how stable it is. I can have almost as low a ping as he does, but it can also fluctuate by 200 or more at any time. And i think that fluctuation, combined with whatever "packet loss" discon. bug fix they put in, has really made dmg totally all over the place.

So I think that while there are certainly a lot of players like myself with severe wierdness happening, there are also some like yourself, where it doesnt pan out quite as bad. Lower salvo counts are also not going to exagerate the effect as much. However, I also do not think that info really alters my point. It is still unreliable for datamine, it is still hard or impossible to gauge actual dmg and effectiveness because it is simply not uniform for everyone, all the time, every time.

[Caviel]

blinkin, on 26 June 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

seems like it is starting to follow the same evolution as the modular weapons textures.

i know they have a lot on their plate, but if the developers don't do something about the disjointed systems that are collecting, it is going to snowball and they will reach a point where it is no longer feasible to fix them.

they might want to consider dedicating someone to going through and bringing all of the old mechs in line with all of the game mechanics on the new ones.

Yep, the AS7-D fires a pair of LRM20 in two salvos, and has a 10 port launcher in the torso. It is entirely dependent on the mech and variant used, apparently. Graphic displays alone are not enough to make the determination.