167 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

MaddMaxx, on 04 June 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

A Welfare system. Genius. Why not a Tax on those that have to be distributed amongst those who don't, to assure ample cannon fodder for those who can.

I suck at world of tanks. I never find myself broke. I have a kdr of 0.05. You seem to be under some extreme impressions of poor players. I'm forced to repair and rearm every game.

I haven't seen a player who has lower than a 0.3 kdr in MWO, and even they managed fairly well financially. If you're struggling, there's always someone willing to pick you up to help you out. True, not everyone is so generous, but I pick up new players all the time and teach them a bit about MWO.

The way I see it, you make more money... you lose more money... but when you make more than you lose in almost every case EXCEPT boating, what's wrong with it? All it teaches is if you boat something like 6 ER PPCs and come back losing about a 1 and a half million cbills, then you don't ever want to do that again.

Although if the heat system didn't allow this 30 PPC Hunchback, we wouldn't have any issues at all. Heat efficiency of 0.84. Rapid fire, pre PPC buff (I call the delay in firing a buff as it only cools them down faster before firing again), back to back macro action with 5 PPCs. Gets from 0% heat to 30 shots, going into override and firing non-stop until it explodes.

Edited by Koniving, 04 June 2013 - 09:51 AM.

[tenderloving]

MaddMaxx, on 04 June 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

A Welfare system. Genius. Why not a Tax on those that have to be distributed amongst those who don't, to assure ample cannon fodder for those who can.

Let's create a permanent underclass of gamers known as Scrublings. We can bathe in their blood as we crush them under the flourescent green boots of our tricked-out Stalkers while sipping Mountain Dew and feasting on Doritos.

[Joseph Mallan]

tenderloving, on 04 June 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

Let's create a permanent underclass of gamers known as Scrublings. We can bathe in their blood as we crush them under the flourescent green boots of our tricked-out Stalkers while sipping Mountain Dew and feasting on Doritos.

I'd be ok with this... But I gave up Mountain dew and never have been much of a Doritos fan. But Cheesie Puffs! hats a different story.

[Redwo1f]

yup, it is getting quite boring seeing the same old mechs all the time. I love those odd matches where u get some real variety (alas they be far and few between)...
but i am proud to say that i will ride my mediums into the ground! - yes, disadvantaged, yes, frustrating at times, yes - a hell of a lot of fun! They should be the most populous mech in the game by cannon and i will do everthing i can to help...*aside from some runs in my Dragons and Ravens ...oh, & my new Cat*...err...

[Joseph Mallan]

My Kurita Alt is a primarily Medium Pilot(1.08 K/D), My Davion is a Heavy(1.21K/D), Joe is obviously an Assault(1.35 K/D), I do play multiple weight classes, but I do s according to the House affiliation.

[MaddMaxx]

Steadfast, on 04 June 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

I have seen you long enough on theese boards to know that you do not believe in this.
Well played nonetheless.

The players do not even have to enforce that. The Dev can make the Contracts say exactly that. As a Team, you then decide who gets what, as most will have a full kit of Mechs by then. Do not like that line-up, no worries. Select another contract that moire suits your crew and their desired Mechs to play.

Then once everything is a go, RP your self to death and enjoy the Comms chatter...

[MaddMaxx]

Redshift2k5, on 04 June 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

Medium mechs should give you 150% match payout

Although I did LOL at that notion, it may have merit. Let's try and fill in the gaps shall we.

Lights - 110?%

Mediums - 150% (already suggested)

Heavies - 100%

Assaults - 90%

Other provision required obviously. Example: Only Assaults can get Seismic and get extra module slots, etc. etc. etc.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 04 June 2013 - 10:02 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Koniving, on 04 June 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

Trial system ends in July. No more trial mechs. Ever.

You get a full training tidbit and 8 mil cbills handed to you at the door. "Here ya go, buy your mech and have fun." Could even do a 25 matches free repair and rearm tidbit while they learn in actual matches in the low-end of the ELO spectrum.

Any crutch, that allows a player to think they are doing better than they really are is a bad thing. Eventually reality comes calling and if that reality is they can't afford to play the game, at their level, you have lost a player, forever. That just cannot be allowed to happen.

P.S. 8 million is not a bucket load by any stretch. We cannot assume incomes of others based on what we already "know" to be our own incomes over time. The new players do not have the benefit of hindsight...

Edited by MaddMaxx, 04 June 2013 - 10:10 AM.

[tenderloving]

MaddMaxx, on 04 June 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Any crutch, that allows a player to think they are doing better than they really are is a bad thing. Eventually reality comes calling and if that reality is they can't afford to play the game, at their level, you have lost a player, forever. That just cannot be allowed to happen.

P.S. 8 million is not a bucket load by any stretch. We cannot assume incomes of others based on what we already "know" to be our own incomes over time. The new players do not have the benefit of hindsight...

The only knowledge the newcomer will have is his own experience. If he's facing super customized GodMechs he's going to compare himself to that and that only.

Some players will put their nose down and grind, some players will open up their wallets to skip ahead to the good stuff, but the majority will say "meh" and move on.

[Koniving]

tenderloving, on 04 June 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

The only knowledge the newcomer will have is his own experience. If he's facing super customized GodMechs he's going to compare himself to that and that only.

Some players will put their nose down and grind, some players will open up their wallets to skip ahead to the good stuff, but the majority will say "meh" and move on.

I agree.

MaddMaxx, on 04 June 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Any crutch, that allows a player to think they are doing better than they really are is a bad thing. Eventually reality comes calling and if that reality is they can't afford to play the game, at their level, you have lost a player, forever. That just cannot be allowed to happen.

P.S. 8 million is not a bucket load by any stretch. We cannot assume incomes of others based on what we already "know" to be our own incomes over time. The new players do not have the benefit of hindsight...

Right now the "godmechs" are chasing new players away a lot faster than being broke. Go into a match. Instantly killed by a 6 PPC stalker. Instantly killed by a 4 PPC Poptart, or 4 PPC + Gauss Atlas RS. Go into a match, 7 enemies have LRMs and the new guy's too scared to rush 'em.

Go into a match, there's 6 people on the enemy team with twin AC/20s.

Go into a match, there's 8 Atlas DDCs with ECM.

Go into a match, encounter this!

This is mentioned a lot in several threads.

In what way does that help player retention? It's terrifying to read. It's worse to experience. Even I started using the 4 PPC + Gauss Atlas, and being accused of 'aimbot', and "Whoa" and "BS."

Edited by Koniving, 04 June 2013 - 10:32 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

tenderloving, on 04 June 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

The only knowledge the newcomer will have is his own experience. If he's facing super customized GodMechs he's going to compare himself to that and that only.

Some players will put their nose down and grind, some players will open up their wallets to skip ahead to the good stuff, but the majority will say "meh" and move on.

And again, it is the Community that will provide them that experience. Some new players will join teams, get support and learn, then become playa's.

Others will not and will instead face your GodMech's in the PUG environment, those piloted by ball-less wimps who more enjoy killing weaklings then testing their actual metal in real combat.

Who do you think will have a better experience?

[Koniving]

Game's back on! *Whooshes because he's got better things to do!*

[Kdogg788]

Redshift2k5, on 04 June 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

Medium mechs should give you 150% match payout

Joseph Mallan, on 04 June 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

On the contrary. I expect the Canon units to heed the Canon unit design. You have never read about me complaining about the MM mismatches either. I am on record saying that we have to be ready to play v the total mismatch, cause in combat it happens, in Canon it happens, and when the Clans arrive with Light Mechs that are 25% faster than our Lights with better armor protection and more powerful weapons, we need to ready for the devastation that comes with them.

I will say I am not a proponent of us having access to all the Mechs. Some of them are universal, but not many Houses have Catapults or Spiders or Jenners. So some of the Mech choices should be House specific or house variant only, unless "captured" in combat. No I am not suggesting players losing their ride. But the possibility of the 5th Alliance Guards getting a copy of say My AC20 Jager if I fall on the field and Maxx's team is victorious over us. Now what they do with it after that is up to them.

I really hope you guys are trolling it up hard here because
A: We will never see a class based reward system like this, especially not to such extremes. Otherwise I'd just troll it up in the X-5 or the eventual hero Jenner and just bank it up every game,
B: CW is not realistically going to enforce canon unit or canon class ratios for mech distribution. Players will always choose the mechs they wish to drive regardless of weight. Sometimes I play the X-5, sometimes a Catapult or Ilya. While there will be some limited class and weight limits, to say that the 5th Hugaboo Hussars uses 60% lights so the players dropping as them should have 60% lights or that as a Kurita player I shouldn't have access to the Cataphracts which I bought with Cbills or the Ilya that I purchased with MC makes no sense.
C: The game will never be tweaked in such a way that a Blackjack will eat up an Atlas, even if a random Sarna page says it is so. Maybe in canon Fluff you would see the improbable happen, but given equal skill the player in the better armed and armored mech will prevail most times in this scenario.

-k

[Murzao]

Solution to this is very simple and comes in 2 parts:

1: Hard tonnage cap limit. You want to play in all assaults you play short handed.

2: Make airstrike/artillery not suck complete balls....if some noob poptart wants to jump you should be able to drop a 200 damage bomb on his head before he lands and can get away. Naturally this encourages speed so you would see a lot less turreting, I'm sure there'd be a lot of crying...but the game would be a lot better. Naturally you wouldn't waste your artillery on a light/medium that can get away walking backwards.

Problem solved.

Edited by Murzao, 04 June 2013 - 11:02 AM.

[Kdogg788]

Murzao, on 04 June 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Solution to this is very simple and comes in 2 parts:

1: Hard tonnage cap limit. You want to play in all assaults you play short handed.

2: Make airstrike/artillery not suck complete balls....if some noob poptart wants to jump you should be able to drop a 200 damage bomb on his head before he lands and can get away. Naturally this encourages speed so you would see a lot let turreting, I'm sure there'd be a lot of crying...but the game would be a lot better. Naturally you wouldn't waste your artillery on a light/medium that can get away walking backwards.

Problem solved.

We will eventually have a tonnage and weight class limit, although I wouldn't expect to be too harsh. At least we will not see teams of all assaults. At the same time, there will most likely be a tonnage floor so it's not all lights and a weight class restriction, possibly max 4 of the same class.

-k

[Thundercles]

Kdogg788, on 04 June 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

C: The game will never be tweaked in such a way that a Blackjack will eat up an Atlas, even if a random Sarna page says it is so. Maybe in canon Fluff you would see the improbable happen, but given equal skill the player in the better armed and armored mech will prevail most times in this scenario.

-k

Which is a roundabout way of saying that assault chassis do not have to give up maneuverability to get their high armor/heavy weapon load-outs. That's one of the main reasons they're so popular... the only drawback is movement speed. They get all of the good stuff without really giving anything up for it. In that kind of environment, simple tonnage is king.

Don't get me wrong, I don't forsee it ever changing, which is a shame - it pretty much kills role warfare. You're either an assault for guns, or a light for speed...otherwise you're weighing the team down. An assault mech should be an absolute terror to face if you're stuck in his sights and there appears to be a lot of support for making it so that even the fastest and most nimble opponents have no way of avoiding those sights short of refusing to engage at all. Or at the very least, a lot of antipathy to any change that might make heavier chassis HAVE to rely on things like teamwork and supporting fire to deal with lights and mediums.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kdogg788, on 04 June 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

B: CW is not realistically going to enforce canon unit or canon class ratios for mech distribution. Players will always choose the mechs they wish to drive regardless of weight. Sometimes I play the X-5, sometimes a Catapult or Ilya. While there will be some limited class and weight limits, to say that the 5th Hugaboo Hussars uses 60% lights so the players dropping as them should have 60% lights or that as a Kurita player I shouldn't have access to the Cataphracts which I bought with Cbills or the Ilya that I purchased with MC makes no sense.
C: The game will never be tweaked in such a way that a Blackjack will eat up an Atlas, even if a random Sarna page says it is so. Maybe in canon Fluff you would see the improbable happen, but given equal skill the player in the better armed and armored mech will prevail most times in this scenario.

-k

B: It will be a total bummer if I run into the Wolf's Zeta Battalion and there is anything other than Assaults! It is what the unit was made of.

It is my opinion, I understand the logistics of it, I would like to see it though. Exceptions could be Hero Mechs as they are cash only I suppose. I realize it is highly unlikely, But a guy can dream.

C) I have owned a few Atlas in my AC10 SRM 2x Med Centurion. A Blackjack can o i if the pilots are right.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 June 2013 - 11:05 AM.

[Kdogg788]

Thundercles, on 04 June 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

Which is a roundabout way of saying that assault chassis do not have to give up maneuverability to get their high armor/heavy weapon load-outs. That's one of the main reasons they're so popular... the only drawback is movement speed. They get all of the good stuff without really giving anything up for it. In that kind of environment, simple tonnage is king.

Don't get me wrong, I don't forsee it ever changing, which is a shame - it pretty much kills role warfare. You're either an assault for guns, or a light for speed...otherwise you're weighing the team down. An assault mech should be an absolute terror to face if you're stuck in his sights and there appears to be a lot of support for making it so that even the fastest and most nimble opponents have no way of avoiding those sights short of refusing to engage at all. Or at the very least, a lot of antipathy to any change that might make heavier chassis HAVE to rely on things like teamwork and supporting fire to deal with lights and mediums.

At the core of it though, is that mediums can be effective IF piloted the way they were intended to, with maneuver use of cover and tactical choice of target. We have players who absolutely kill it in any number of medium chassis, have your pick, but they know how to drive them, and can top the leaderboard in some games in damage keeping up with the heaviest of mechs. All mechs have had their armor raised and many mediums and even lights still pack a good punch. Assaults still have nowhere near the maneuverability and twist radius of many mediums and heavies. It's still relatively easy to get behind them.

-k

[Und3rSc0re]

tenderloving, on 04 June 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

Eve Online has a real economy with actual scarcity. It's an MMO where you can actually lose your profits and ships when they blow up. Nobody with any clue about economics would think to compare that game's economy to this one.

World of Tanks has strong pay-to-win elements. It is probably the best example of why you don't want to balance through currency; it becomes more like playing the slots and less like playing a real game. So thanks for bringing that up and inadvertantly supporting my argument.

Hey eve onlines real economy has nothing to do with it not using currency as a balance measure. You probably never played world of tanks because only pay 2 win function currently is gold rounds "for bads in pubs, if you know where to shoot you dont need gold rounds" which you can buy with credits though they are either being removed or moving to a much cheaper credit system. Premium tanks are just like hero mechs here in mwo except the premium tanks their are actually worse than their same tier equivalents. http://www.gamasutra...to_the_curb.php

Wot also uses currency as a balance measure for the matchmaker through the rr system. Else you would see nonstop tier 10 matches.

tenderloving, on 04 June 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

Something like this is probably the best way to fix it. Nobody is forced to do anything, but players are nudged in a certain direction.

Many other games give xp/credit boosts to encourage players to spread out their choices. Maybe the payouts could swing from 125% to 90% depending on the class you are attempting to run.

WTF what happened to you not wanting the devs to use currency as a balancing measure.

Stop trolling tenderloving please.

Edited by Und3rSc0re, 04 June 2013 - 11:20 AM.

[SuomiWarder]

We don't need to see long wait times and failed to find a match results if the matchmaker is tuned for weight distribution correctly. Pre-grouped sets of 2 to 4 and matched against another pregroup within say 20 total tons or a bunch pf Pugs that equal weight are drawn. Then the drop is filled by pairs of equal weight mechs - one to side A and one to side B. If there are not enough pairs qued then that bunch goes short players in equal numbers on either team. 7v7, 9v9, etc.