138 replies to this topic

[Asmudius Heng]

tenderloving, on 03 June 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

A team of mediums? Would you be afraid to face a team of mediums?

I would prefer to fight a team of mediums rather than a team of lights for sure.

Mediums are so much easier to hit compared to lights because lights are much smaller than they should be for their tonnage. And they carry only a slightly larger payload.

Would people prefer to fight a team of assault or heavies also?

PGI have tried to make all chassis equally combat viable and have failed because that never should have been the case with the base design mechanics they are working from. They made lights smaller than they should be to even things out then left mediums in a bad place showing the short sightedness.

Bring on CW if that brings a semblance of sense where people are either restricted from certain chassis, or are HIGHLY incentivised to play mediums for instance.

[Asakara]

RG Notch, on 03 June 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

I'd say you do obviously understand that the 7% is in the aggregate for the entire player base and that your individual experience will vary? You do .... right?

Sorry, I did not see that disclaimer in PGI's "fact" statement. Perhaps you could highlight it for me please?

And it is pretty clear my individual experience (and those of my friends) does vary by the existence of this thread and how our reality is totally different than PGI's stated "fact".

Do you feel it is a good thing for the matchmaker to have one team typically underweight by 80-100+ tons for the majority of their matches if some friends decide to play lights (or lights and mediums) together?

Edited by Asakara, 03 June 2013 - 03:58 PM.

[RG Notch]

Asakara, on 03 June 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

Sorry, I did not see that disclaimer in PGI's "fact" statement. Perhaps you could highlight it for me please?

And it is pretty clear my individual experience (and those of my friends) does vary by the existence of this thread and how our reality is totally different than PGI's stated "fact".

Do you feel it is a good thing for the matchmaker to have one team typically underweight by 100 tons for the majority of their matches if some friends decide to play lights (or lights and mediums) together?

Wow, you really don't know how that works? Disclaimer, wow now I see why they have to put instructions on wetnaps these days.

[Asakara]

RG Notch, on 03 June 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

Wow, you really don't know how that works? Disclaimer, wow now I see why they have to put instructions on wetnaps these days.

So you answer with snark. LOL.

[RG Notch]

Asakara, on 03 June 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

So you answer with snark. LOL.

Why bother with anything else? If you honestly don't understand how numbers like this don't reflect your exact experience how can one engage in a reasoned discussion? If the basic premise is not grasped there is nothing to discuss. I'm not here to educate people on basic statistics. So snark it is.
Now if you can educate yourself and realize why your experience doesn't mirror the aggregate numbers and grasp why there doesn't ever need to be a disclaimer to people who do grasp the concept, perhaps we can have a discussion. Otherwise, be sure to not drink the shampoo. I mean I'm not sure if they print that on the side.

[Asakara]

RG Notch, on 03 June 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

Why bother with anything else? If you honestly don't understand how numbers like this don't reflect your exact experience how can one engage in a reasoned discussion? If the basic premise is not grasped there is nothing to discuss. I'm not here to educate people on basic statistics. So snark it is.
Now if you can educate yourself and realize why your experience doesn't mirror the aggregate numbers and grasp why there doesn't ever need to be a disclaimer to people who do grasp the concept, perhaps we can have a discussion. Otherwise, be sure to not drink the shampoo. I mean I'm not sure if they print that on the side.

Hmmm.. You think maybe I made this post make PGI aware there may be an issue for some of their customers and for some of us their blanket "fact" is not reality?

That is kinda the point of posting a thread about gameplay balance in the gameplay balance forum for this beta game no?

But anyways.. Thanks for the pointless snark and the bump for this thread to the top of the forum.

[Grrzoot]

so first off. hey folks. Wispsy, asakara. You guys are not allowed to fight you are two of the best light pilots i have ever known and fighting makes it really unlikely to build my dream team once 12 mans hit. K so play nice.

second, i play with these guy quite a bit too. and some nights maybe we run 4 atlases, quess what we run, OVER tonnage by 1-200 a match on average. I would agree with statements made in this thread that a more balanced team will have an easier time of it not being over/under as much. But that doesn't change his basic statement that the matchmaker should be able to handle groups of any type or size. i mean soon enough they want 12v12.

third, i will argue that lights are definitely not the least played weight class. mediums are and mediums at 50 tons are the exact middle of the current available tonnage in this game. You want to see even more skewed results play all mediums- except it wont be weight that's off but ability, most like you will see a couple mediums, 3 lights and 3 assaults, outdone on both maneuverability and firepower.

And whoever that was making those malicious "scoundrel comments" please refrain from using straw-man arguments to try and prove your point. To be honest the argument that you made about the lady walking in high heels actually PROVES asakara's point more than your own, because:
regardless of what the woman wore (what mech type), as long as it was allowed by the stores dress code (light mechs) the store (matchmaker) is still responsible for and willing to say that they are accountable in that type of situation. So you actually said what asakara was inferring.
This isn't a scientific study, but a post showing that balance by weight is off in many situations with evidence, it is a statement of what we have run into often and is making it known. replying in the manner i see here most of the time is not constructive, nor helpfull, and no one that has criticized has offered any other evidence to the contrary, just words.
If anything i think it's more indicative of a larger problem with the current meta that favors long range alpha builds over more balanced mechs, making for an unusually large number of assault or heavier mechs in the matchmaker.

[RG Notch]

Asakara, on 03 June 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

Hmmm.. You think maybe I made this post make PGI aware there may be an issue for some of their customers and for some of us their blanket "fact" is not reality?

That is kinda the point of posting a thread about gameplay balance in the gameplay balance forum for this beta game no?

But anyways.. Thanks for the pointless snark and the bump for this thread to the top of the forum.

So you seriously don't understand how statistics work?

[blinkin]

Grrzoot, on 03 June 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

so first off. hey folks. Wispsy, asakara. You guys are not allowed to fight you are two of the best light pilots i have ever known and fighting makes it really unlikely to build my dream team once 12 mans hit. K so play nice.

second, i play with these guy quite a bit too. and some nights maybe we run 4 atlases, quess what we run, OVER tonnage by 1-200 a match on average. I would agree with statements made in this thread that a more balanced team will have an easier time of it not being over/under as much. But that doesn't change his basic statement that the matchmaker should be able to handle groups of any type or size. i mean soon enough they want 12v12.

third, i will argue that lights are definitely not the least played weight class. mediums are and mediums at 50 tons are the exact middle of the current available tonnage in this game. You want to see even more skewed results play all mediums- except it wont be weight that's off but ability, most like you will see a couple mediums, 3 lights and 3 assaults, outdone on both maneuverability and firepower.

And whoever that was making those malicious "scoundrel comments" please refrain from using straw-man arguments to try and prove your point. To be honest the argument that you made about the lady walking in high heels actually PROVES asakara's point more than your own, because:
regardless of what the woman wore (what mech type), as long as it was allowed by the stores dress code (light mechs) the store (matchmaker) is still responsible for and willing to say that they are accountable in that type of situation. So you actually said what asakara was inferring.
This isn't a scientific study, but a post showing that balance by weight is off in many situations with evidence, it is a statement of what we have run into often and is making it known. replying in the manner i see here most of the time is not constructive, nor helpfull, and no one that has criticized has offered any other evidence to the contrary, just words.
If anything i think it's more indicative of a larger problem with the current meta that favors long range alpha builds over more balanced mechs, making for an unusually large number of assault or heavier mechs in the matchmaker.

they are pushing the match maker too far. there is nothing any match maker could do to fix this. the mechs are just not there. if the vast majority of people play assault mechs, then guess what, you get to fight assault mechs. there is a good solid chance that they made up the majority of the light mechs in the pool.

if you only have 16 mechs and the only 4 light mechs are in a team, unless the team is broken up there can never be balance.

there are problems, but lets give the matchmaker something to work with BEFORE we complain about it not doing it's job. the developers said 7% fall into the horrendously bad category. with these matches the players have been directly pushing themselves into those 7% of matches.

once there are more than a hand full of light mechs on the field, THEN if MM fails there is something wrong. complaining about it not being able to find light mechs that ARE NOT THERE is just moronic.

we need to give players a reason to play something besides assault mechs consistently. at this point there is very little that any match making system of any kind could do to fix this.

[Sephlock]

But, but, mismatches are the most epic to play!

[FupDup]

Sephlock, on 03 June 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

But, but, mismatches are the most epic to play!

That's against AI in stock mechs...the mismatch was that they were pitted against a human player with two lances of min-maxed mechs that could be ordered to concentrate fire.

[Mister Blastman]

Did you even hear that guy? He wasn't sweating at all! The under-dramatization in that game was hilarious... ly bad.

MW 2/MW 2 Mercs > all.

[Delas Ting Usee]

Ordate, on 02 June 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

I have to say that I am getting pretty tired of this. Multiple times I would be the only assault. The other team would have 5 for example. Most recent match, me (awesome) other team (1 atlas, 1 stk, 3 highlanders) Even IF there was a premade of 4 assaults, one of those assaults still should have been placed on my team. The remainder of there team was fairly balanced against someone else in ours. And this isn't fluke behavior. I've seen it constantly last two days.

I was on your team in that particular game - my frustration level at the end was...explosive to say the least.

[Feetwet]

Had a drop the other day that made me want to cry. Match starts, I see my team has 1 assault, 1 heavy (my flame), 3 meds, and 3 lights (my 2 lance mates). We get absolutely pulverized in assault game mode on frozen city. Opposing team 3 assaults (2 tarts), 4 hvys (I saw an ac40, 3d, and streakcat, +1) and a Jenner. Ouch.

S

[Fate 6]

BillyM, on 02 June 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

So you suggest the average mech weight in current matches is 50-tons? Are you related to a certain H.Keller?



-billyM

No, I'm not suggesting that (25+100)/2=50, nor am I even close to suggesting the average weight in current matches is 50. Didn't I just say that it wasn't? What I'm saying is that, in the Mechwarrior universe, mediums are the most common mech. So the average mech is about 50 tons, because the next most common mechs are lights. So, just an example of what I'd like to see: (35+25+45+50+50+40+90+65)/8=50. Now, maybe the average weight should be closer to 55 (I wouldn't complain about 1 less light in exchange for a heavy), but the point is that a decent balanced team should be pretty close to 50 tons average.

Edited by Fate 6, 03 June 2013 - 09:44 PM.

[The Strange]

Asakara, on 01 June 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

Two friends and I played 15 games on Friday from 8:45 PM PST to 11:25 PM PST with TheFoxyShortBus of NGNG.

I didn't read all the posts, so I don't know if this was covered yet or not, but anyways.

I take the above quote to mean that you were in a 4-man premade group. That is most likely your issue here. When you are in a group, it obviously puts you all in the same match. Since the matchmaker is ELO based, it averages your ELO scores and puts you in a match as appropriate to that average. If there are not enough players in that bracket in the same tonnage range as you, the weight will be off.

Solo pugging results in more balanced matches, but adding premades into the mix causes weight disparity. That disparity is balanced out by the fact that you can easily communicate with your lance. That can be countered if the other team also has a premade, but is heavier.

Bottom line, don't expect balanced weight if you run premades. The more members in your premade, the worse the weight disparity can get. Especially if you run lights or mediums.

[Sephlock]

Mister Blastman, on 03 June 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Did you even hear that guy? He wasn't sweating at all! The under-dramatization in that game was hilarious... ly bad. MW 2/MW 2 Mercs > all.

Specter is just that good.

[Deathlike]

Fate 6, on 03 June 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

No, I'm not suggesting that (25+100)/2=50, nor am I even close to suggesting the average weight in current matches is 50. Didn't I just say that it wasn't? What I'm saying is that, in the Mechwarrior universe, mediums are the most common mech. So the average mech is about 50 tons, because the next most common mechs are lights. So, just an example of what I'd like to see: (35+25+45+50+50+40+90+65)/8=50. Now, maybe the average weight should be closer to 55 (I wouldn't complain about 1 less light in exchange for a heavy), but the point is that a decent balanced team should be pretty close to 50 tons average.

50 tons per player is... just fail.

When there were leagues, 70 tons average per player in each team was the standard (at least with respect to MW4). So, if you took an Atlas, someone would have take a Cicada (well, in some ways, there were bigger teams, so it wouldn't strictly look like this). It would kinda balance itself out.

Since 20 tonners and 100 tonners are the technical maximums, something like a tonnage cap of 60 to 65 tons per player would probably balance things on a tonnage restriction level. However, the real issue is the premades, so you would have to enforce that rule upon them (you don't want 2 Atlases in a 2-man premade for example). There will be issues, but these can be worked through to some extent.

Edit:

Now that I think about it a bit more... restricting 2 Atlases in a 2-man premade is a bad thing. However, for the sake of the MM and ELO, I think it makes better sense to WARN players at certain tonnage extremes (too big or too small) that their MM time will be more likely to be slower due to their current overall tonnage. This is the only fair and easier way to keep tonnage limits in check while not restricting them to any particular limitation, other than time. My time is spent better when every type of mech is on the field (or at least tonnagewise fair) than Steiner Scout LanceWarrior Online.

Edited by Deathlike, 03 June 2013 - 10:40 PM.

[jakucha]

FupDup, on 03 June 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

That's against AI in stock mechs...the mismatch was that they were pitted against a human player with two lances of min-maxed mechs that could be ordered to concentrate fire.

Story-wise clanners aren't always so big on teamwork, so there's that.