9 replies to this topic

[Ceesa]

A lot of people are focusing on the weapon stats when discussing the PPC meta, but I think there's more to it than that. ML are still a wonderful weapon, and so is some of the other short range stuff (large pulse are pretty decent too), but the issue is that you have to survive to get into close range so you can use it.

That's where my issue with the maps comes in. On a lot of maps there are very long sight ranges, and that helps the PPC builds. Alpine, Tourmaline, and Caustic are the chief offenders. If we had maps that were engineered differently, without the super-long sightlines, players would have to change their builds. Of course it would make finding the other team more difficult, but that would help get lights back in play, and perhaps even some mediums.

So let's hope for some newer map designs that have few sniping opportunities and let that dictate the meta.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

WNxFireDrake, on 02 June 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

So let's hope for some newer map designs that have few sniping opportunities and let that dictate the meta.

Maps that are anti-sniping are also anti-LRMs. If you want maps to only cater to brawling then why not just remove long range weapons from the game?

[LordBraxton]

Every map has some really long fire-lanes

alpine has no cover, only massive terrain features in the form of mountains

OP has a good point

the big issue with PPCs is that

for their tonnage

they are STILL the best weapon until you get to 90m

90m is POINT BLANK range

brawling weapons are too weak

[Nauht]

Actually those "chief offenders" are the only ones that have no real obstacles in firing lanes. Everything else has some form of cover, tunnels, hills, buildings.

If you're getting sniped in any of those other maps other than tourmaline, alpine or caustic it's probably cos you were trying to snipe too.... but the other guy just had the bigger alpha or better shot. But even on alpine I can get up close with my AC40 jager, it's just a matter of patience.

Ofc Braxton has a point with brawlers though - when that sniper has ERPPC/GR they do just as much damage up close as well as be able to snipe, but that's an entirely different issue other than map design.

[Livewyr]

You have to have ranged weapons.
You have to have maps with all sorts of diversity. (The brawling meta was just as annoying for missiles and snipers as the PPC meta is for brawlers and missiles.)

The gauss is a nice ranged weapon, but it's the heaviest in the game and can't be effectively boated. (I don't consider "2" a boat)
The PPC (normally) is a nice ranged weapon, being light and applicable most anywhere with good range, no ammo consumption, but very high heat, making it available for long range support shots, but not a a ranged machine gun nest (like it is right now.)

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Alpine and Tourmaline are some of the better things PGI did with this game, not everyone wants to fight with a knife in a phone both, some of us (especially lighter armored and faster mechs) like to maneuver effectively.
This will become especially apparent in 12v12.

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In short, the ease of mounting and use of PPCs dictates the sniping meta, not maps. Fix PPCs, snipers will still be there, but they won't run the battlefield.

Also: Start considering mixed loadouts- or alternatively, stop whining about being totally outranged because none of your weapons go past 400 meters.

[LordBraxton]

Just because a map is large

does not mean the expanses between terrain features needs to be large

they could have made a map the size of alpine

with the terrain detail and density of river city

IDK why they didnt

it would make scouts WAY more important, Alpine is big but there is nowhere to hide

[Ceesa]

I agree that maps should have some sniping lanes and I agree that mixed loadouts are preferable to pure close or long rang builds. Personally, I run mixed loadouts on most of my mechs and do alright. The problem with the ranged weapons is that they're so effective at close range as well. If PPCs and gauss were crap at short range then this wouldn't be an issue, but because they maintain effectiveness over a all ranged, they get used more. One way to get around this would be to change the weapons, giving them significant minimum ranges, but another way would be to change the maps, limiting the opportunities to use them at their maximum range. If you had such a map, mechs equipped with long range weapons would be able to use them occasionally at best, which would force build diversity and the inclusion of short range weaponry as well.

Of course a map that has zero long range opportunities would be just as bad. Making maps with a good mix, like Canyon (if you play it properly) are going to be key to reinforcing the use of balanced builds.

[Mr 144]

LordBraxton, on 02 June 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

Just because a map is large

does not mean the expanses between terrain features needs to be large

they could have made a map the size of alpine

with the terrain detail and density of river city

IDK why they didnt

it would make scouts WAY more important, Alpine is big but there is nowhere to hide

I always felt Alpine was big just for the sake of being big. Tupentine and Canyonero are decent enough though...with both large LoS avenues, and terrain. Alpine just feels like a waste of space.

[Voidcrafter]

It's not that MOST of the maps support the usage of PPCs - it's just that ALL of them do.
And there are SOME maps that would punish you for taking brawl weapons, but NONE of them will punish you for bringing PPC/Gauss rifles.
That's only a part of the problem though

Releasing two assault mechs being capable of both mounting very huge amount of armor and having the hardpoints for a 3xPPC/Gauss, 4+PPC builds, paired with the map properties...
Well... you see the result every day, don't you

[aniviron]

Mr 144, on 02 June 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

I always felt Alpine was big just for the sake of being big. Tupentine and Canyonero are decent enough though...with both large LoS avenues, and terrain. Alpine just feels like a waste of space.

Canyon actually feels small to me, barely larger than Forest Colony. I agree 10000% about alpine's size and reasoning. It was the first of the large maps, and I feel as though they were trying to prove something, but instead just made a map with no cover and thus no interesting ways to fight; it's ridge snipe or disconnect.

Tourmaline is a pretty decent mix; I would like just a touch more cover in the middle, though. At least there are places with cover and ways to engage tactically at mixed range.