24 replies to this topic

[Aurrous]

Per the TT rules a mech that was shut down due to the abuse of the heat system was more susceptible to AIMED SHOTS. This would include an increased odds of hitting the target (not in the head) and increased odds of a successful focused strike on that part..
Shots to the head where harder to make, but had increased odds of a focused strike to that part..

Taking the current game rules into place,
I suggest a mod that when targeting a shut down mech, gives the player an increased damage, and increased Focused ability of X percent, and increased damage on the part under the cross hairs. The added bonuses are not given when a strike that will cause them to shut down themselves.

This could also be incorporated into the "Critical scanner" idea..

Edited by Aurrous, 02 June 2013 - 08:09 AM.

[ExtremeA79]

No. This is not Table top, it is a simulation. Just because some one shutdowns doesn't mean my autocannons do more damage.

Edited by Darren Tyler, 02 June 2013 - 08:10 AM.

[Aurrous]

Darren Tyler, on 02 June 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

No. This is not Table top, it is a simulation. Just because some one shutdowns doesn't mean my autocannons do more damage.

Correction, they are both simulations, 2 means to simulate the same thing, In both cases it means they (the shut down mech) are not moving around causing the Damage to be spread to other parts either.. (the way it is "transfered" while moving) it means they are shut down (not moving) and the fire will more than likely hit 1 area more compactly, directly, with more focus.. The cooler the attacker is, the more accurate the shot..

in the table top its based off a roll, that roll = 6, 7, 8 it will hit the AIMED Part.

There is no rolling in this simulation, but in this simulation there can be an increased odds of hitting an area in same way its done in the other simulation.. The reality is there shouldn't need to be a module for this.. but, as there is no rolling, and its a modification to the gunnery skill..

[redreaper]

when they shutdown now u get a bonus a stationary target that doesnt fire back...

[HiplyRustic]

We already get a bonus, two in fact:

They are not returning fire...we can stand stationary and just blast away...which leads me to my next point.

They are sitting still. If you can't hit one area of the mech far more effectively when they are not moving, may I humbly suggest that the problem is not entirely due to a lack of an "AIM SHOT" bonus.

Edited by HiplyRustic, 03 June 2013 - 07:54 AM.

[Hotthedd]

A shut down mech is ALREADY more susceptible to aimed shots.

Please tell me how does being a stationary target make lasers/ballistics/missiles do EXTRA damage? What is the physics behind it? What in the BT universe makes weapons do MORE damage to a target that isn't moving?

[Aurrous]

HiplyRustic, on 02 June 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

We already get a bonus, two in fact:

They are not returning fire...we can stand stationary and just blast away...which leads me to my next point.

They are sitting still. If you can't hit one area of the mech far more effectively than when they are not moving, may I humbly suggest that the problem is not entirely due to a lack of an "AIM SHOT" bonus.

And in the table top they are shut down, and in the table top, it was easier to hit them because they didn't move, and yes they don't fire back, but there was still an added bonus, because they were shut down.. same thing i'm suggesting..

The damage currently is "TRANSFERRED" over a larger group, that's why a Lg at optimum range doesn't do the damage it should. because the damage it transferred over the different parts it hits in..

"What is the physics behind it?" how does the physics behind the Focused fire "perk" in the mech tree work????

"What in the BT universe makes weapons do MORE damage to a target that isn't moving" Table top.. page 28 of the basic rules book.. increased odd of hitting the same location on a target in the aimed location, doing more damage to that location, when the mech is shut down.... in the shut down mechs topic..












Also in table top when they over heated they could not move the same, and there return focused was less focused because they were hot.. i know what i'm suggesting, i know the parameters of the suggestion..

[ExtremeA79]

Aurrous, on 02 June 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

And in the table top they are shut down, and in the table top, it was easier to hit them because they didn't move, and yes they don't fire back, but there was still an added bonus, because they were shut down.. same thing i'm suggesting..

The damage currently is "TRANSFERRED" over a larger group, that's why a Lg at optimum range doesn't do the damage it should. because the damage it transferred over the different parts it hits in..

"What is the physics behind it?" how does the physics behind the Focused fire "perk" in the mech tree work????

"What in the BT universe makes weapons do MORE damage to a target that isn't moving" Table top.. page 28 of the basic rules book.. increased odd of hitting the same location on a target in the aimed location, doing more damage to that location, when the mech is shut down.... in the shut down mechs topic..












Also in table top when they over heated they could not move the same, and there return focused was less focused because they were hot.. i know what i'm suggesting, i know the parameters of the suggestion..

Dude, that is table top, the bonus being able to hit someone when shut down is practically already there. They are still and don't return fire.

[WhupAzz]

Hotthedd, on 02 June 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

A shut down mech is ALREADY more susceptible to aimed shots.

Please tell me how does being a stationary target make lasers/ballistics/missiles do EXTRA damage? What is the physics behind it? What in the BT universe makes weapons do MORE damage to a target that isn't moving?

Scotty can't keep the shields up when the mech loses power Captain.

[ExtremeA79]

Do mechs have shields?

WTF

[HiplyRustic]

Aurrous, on 02 June 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

And in the table top they are shut down, and in the table top, it was easier to hit them because they didn't move, and yes they don't fire back, but there was still an added bonus, because they were shut down.. same thing i'm suggesting..

The damage currently is "TRANSFERRED" over a larger group, that's why a Lg at optimum range doesn't do the damage it should. because the damage it transferred over the different parts it hits in..

"What is the physics behind it?" how does the physics behind the Focused fire "perk" in the mech tree work????

"What in the BT universe makes weapons do MORE damage to a target that isn't moving" Table top.. page 28 of the basic rules book.. increased odd of hitting the same location on a target in the aimed location, doing more damage to that location, when the mech is shut down.... in the shut down mechs topic..

Also in table top when they over heated they could not move the same, and there return focused was less focused because they were hot.. i know what i'm suggesting, i know the parameters of the suggestion..

I'm going to apologize in advance for the following:

You're being greedy, plain and simple. Either enough is just not enough for you, or you refuse to run with weapons with the least amount of splash so you can control where your damage goes (if it's that important to you)...or you're simply not a great shot (not zooming in, not steady enough on the mouse, something). A shutdown mech is already candy, how much sweeter does it need to be?

Saying that the physics make sense because "page 28" is foolish. The rationale for the bonus in the rule books is that a shutdown mech should take more damage because you won't miss as much. Makes perfect sense to grant a bonus on the to-hit tables and the likelihood of hitting specific components. You know, like it already works in the game. You're saying the rationale to use the bonus from the rule books is that it's in the rule books. Nonsense, we get a bonus, the mech is just sitting there.

Oh, and of course "The damage currently is "TRANSFERRED" over a larger group, that's why a Lg at optimum range doesn't do the damage it should. because the damage it transferred over the different parts it hits in..". Doh! The mech is moving or the weapon is! Hold the damn weapon still.

Look, I'll make it simple: WE ALREADY GET THE TABLETOP BONUS! THE ODDS TO HIT A MECH, AND A SPECIFIC PART OF THAT MECH, ARE ASTRONOMICALLY HIGHER WHEN SAID MECH IS SHUT DOWN. YOU ARE ASKING FOR A BONUS ON TOP OF A BONUS Tabletop has to grant a bonus to the dice/damage tables because there is no mech sitting dead still on your monitor waiting for you to pull the trigger.


Put a shutdown mech in front of one of my ballistics mechs, like my 3UAC5 Ilya or my 2 AC2/2UAC5 'Phract 4 at anything inside 650-700 yards. That's all the bonus I need.

Edited by HiplyRustic, 02 June 2013 - 12:26 PM.

[LauLiao]

Aurrous, on 02 June 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

Per the TT rules a mech that was shut down due to the abuse of the heat system was more susceptible to AIMED SHOTS. This would include an increased odds of hitting the target (not in the head) and increased odds of a successful focused strike on that part..
Shots to the head where harder to make, but had increased odds of a focused strike to that part..

Taking the current game rules into place,
I suggest a mod that when targeting a shut down mech, gives the player an increased damage, and increased Focused ability of X percent, and increased damage on the part under the cross hairs. The added bonuses are not given when a strike that will cause them to shut down themselves.

This could also be incorporated into the "Critical scanner" idea..

Also in Tabletop you were only able to fire your weapons once every 10 seconds, should we bring that back too?

[Sephlock]

Wouldn't the fact that the enemy is unmoving be sufficient to "simulate" the bonus-to-hit?

[Aurrous]

Hiplyrustic, i don't take offense to anything anyone says on here, Its a forum about an imaginary game that offers some amusement while i wait for something important to happen at work..

Secondly, saying someone is being greedy when they suggest a counter or discouragement to 5+ PPC greedy guy, who lets be honest brought 5+ ppcs because they are being greedy.. In my opinion not really greedy, its a deterrent.. Yes, i overheat, yes i can die by the same sword, and yes i understand the post is a little over the top..(but arn't most post on here?) but there is an issue with the game translation and many of the checks and balances that are in the table top to prevent 5+ PPC guy are not in this game..

When in the table top could you see a light mech run 4 laps around the board without overheating?? Even if you only had a movement and a heat round?? Movement requires power, and power causes heat..

The cooler you where the more accurate the shot.. Here Over heat to hell and back you still get the same accuracy.. 5+ PPC it is.. I could go on..

And in this game we are forced to deal with a Hard point system that was designed to not have 5+ PPC. When the reality is, the hard point system is not needed if you have all of the other "factors" of heat implemented in the table top..
Yes, i understand some things don't translate so well..

Thirdly, " Makes perfect sense to grant a bonus on the to-hit tables and the likelihood of hitting specific components. You know, like it already works in the game. " Fact of the matter is it doesn't work like that in the game...

If you don't believe me go into the training lab and shoot a truly shut down mech.. then do the exact same thing in the actually game, and you will see that thing are way off.. Due to the "Transference", or lag, or what ever..

"like my 3UAC5 Ilya or my 2 AC2/2UAC5 'Phract 4 at anything inside 650-700 yards. That's all the bonus I need"

The ballistics in this game is somewhat of the unsung hero in this game, because laser damage is iffy, unless you're int the training lab, then its spot on.. And i don't keep bringing that up because of an aim issue, i bring that up because of a game mechanics issue, and hit registry issue.. But not every mech can be a ballistics mech because of the hard point system..
So you will be forced to use lasers.. but you probably wont use lasers, becaues you know i have a valid point..

Lasers should do damage, the way ballistics do.. Take that example back to table top.. there was no "transference in table top.. 1 laser hit 1 spot end of story.. like 1 round of ac hits 1 spot.. End of story..

So because things don't work the way they should, you get 5 ppc guy...

I personally, can't wait to be an freebirth scum in a world of 6+ CLAN PPC's With Clan double heat sinks that will fit in the legs, fit in the arms with the 1 hand accuator, with "targeting computers", (which, a targeting computer is not that far off from what i suggested, only you won't have to be shut down for it to work..)

[Aurrous]

Hiplyrustic, i don't take offense to anything anyone says on here, Its a forum about an imaginary game that offers some amusement while i wait for something important to happen at work..

Secondly, saying someone is being greedy when they suggest a counter or discouragement to 5+ PPC greedy guy, who lets be honest brought 5+ ppcs because they are being greedy.. In my opinion not really greedy, its a deterrent.. Yes, i overheat, yes i can die by the same sword, and yes i understand the post is a little over the top..(but arn't most post on here?) but there is an issue with the game translation and many of the checks and balances that are in the table top to prevent 5+ PPC guy are not in this game..

When in the table top could you see a light mech run 4 laps around the board without overheating?? Even if you only had a movement and a heat round?? Movement requires power, and power causes heat..
The cooler you where the more accurate the shot.. Here Over heat to hell and back you still get the same accuracy.. 5+ PPC it is.. I could go on..

And in this game we are forced to deal with a Hard point system that was designed to not have 5+ PPC. When the reality is, the hard point system is not needed if you have all of the other "factors" of heat implemented in the table top.. Yes, i understand some things don't translate so well..

Thirdly, " Makes perfect sense to grant a bonus on the to-hit tables and the likelihood of hitting specific components. You know, like it already works in the game. " Fact of the matter is it doesn't work like that in the game...

If you don't believe me go into the training lab and shoot a truly shut down mech.. then do the exact same thing in the actually game, and you will see that thing are way off.. Due to the "Transference", or lag, or what ever..

"like my 3UAC5 Ilya or my 2 AC2/2UAC5 'Phract 4 at anything inside 650-700 yards. That's all the bonus I need" The ballistics in this game is somewhat of the unsung hero in this game, because laser damage is iffy, unless you're int the training lab, then its spot on.. And i don't keep bringing that up because of an aim issue, i bring that up because of a game mechanics issue, and hit registry issue..

But not every mech can be a ballistics mech because of the hard point system.. So you will be forced to use lasers.. but you probably wont use lasers, because you know i have a valid point..

Lasers should do damage, the way ballistics do.. Take that example back to table top.. there was no "transference in table top.. 1 laser hit 1 spot end of story.. like 1 round of ac hits 1 spot.. End of story..

So because things don't work the way they should, you get 5 ppc guy... I personally, can't wait to be an freebirth scum in a world of 6+ CLAN PPC's With Clan double heat sinks that will fit in the legs, fit in the arms with the 1 hand actuator, with "targeting computers", (which, a targeting computer is not that far off from what i suggested, only you won't have to be shut down for it to work..)

[HiplyRustic]

Sephlock, on 02 June 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

Wouldn't the fact that the enemy is unmoving be sufficient to "simulate" the bonus-to-hit?

You would think so, I certainly do.

[HiplyRustic]

Aurrous, on 03 June 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

Hiplyrustic,

But not every mech can be a ballistics mech because of the hard point system.. So you will be forced to use lasers.. but you probably wont use lasers, because you know i have a valid point..

Lasers should do damage, the way ballistics do.. Take that example back to table top.. there was no "transference in table top.. 1 laser hit 1 spot end of story.. like 1 round of ac hits 1 spot.. End of story..

You are cordially invited to come party with my 4LLas/5SSRM stalker or my 3 LLas/Gauss/LRM10 Atlas. I don't do lasers? I used my ballistics as examples because I find them more fun to go dakka-dakka with, not because I can't aim and if you let me stop, aim carefully and shoot...well, you tell me; how long will you live when the gauss and 3 LLas hit you in the face?

Of course I run lasers, I simply expect the damage from them to spread because, you know, being a heat generating weapon I expect the adjacent armor to do what it's paid for and soak some of it up.

I don't expect lasers to act like ballistics, I expect them to act like lasers. Otherwise why bother having them at all except for a different set of visuals?

I know you have a valid point? I know no such thing. I know an attempt to double dip when I see it, that's what I know.

Edited by HiplyRustic, 03 June 2013 - 07:32 AM.

[Koniving]

Aurrous, on 02 June 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

Per the TT rules a mech that was shut down due to the abuse of the heat system was more susceptible to AIMED SHOTS. This would include an increased odds of hitting the target (not in the head) and increased odds of a successful focused strike on that part..

Technically we already have this. Except we also have increased odds of hitting the head. All you need to do is point at said mech and shoot. You can't possibly miss except at your own fault.

Personally in closed beta, you could get the same by knocking over the said mech. For example in a Raven 4X I could drop-kick (read jumpjet and ram feet into skull) an Atlas, knock him down, and then line up a shot for his eyeball. BAM AC/20 to the EYE! Wash, rinse, repeat, DEAD Atlas.

Enhancing damage or otherwise making the impossibly accurate pinpoint system even more accurate on a shutdown mech is just a waste of processor power; you're already more accurate on a stationary target simply because it isn't moving.

So, uh... why is this here?

Darren Tyler, on 02 June 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

Do mechs have shields?

WTF

Yes. The Raven 3-L used to have them. We call them "lag shields." >.> But otherwise no.

Edited by Koniving, 03 June 2013 - 07:57 AM.

[Bendak]

God I remember an annoying team mate in beta using his jenner to a s s hat my atlas. What he said ^

Edited by Bendak, 03 June 2013 - 08:28 AM.

[Mechteric]

How about if a mech that shuts down due to overheat remains on the radar as if it were still active and targettable until it cools down to a certain percent, say 80% or something around where currently an overheated mech automatically powers up again.

I think that would be the best since currently one of the reasons its not too bad to shut down from overheat is because the enemy loses you on radar and that can actually benefit the person who shut down from overheating.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 03 June 2013 - 09:50 AM.