52 replies to this topic

[Sephlock]

"As awesome and fun as fire and forget missiles would be" you mean.

[Shalune]

Asmudius Heng, on 03 June 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:

As much as i hate the idea of fire and forget LRMs form a skill point of view, it makes sense to add this in so that LRMs can be mixed with other weapons systems more easily and people can fire multiple LRMs at different targets quickly to suppress and cause havoc if not much damage.

It would also mean smaller packs of LRMs would be more useful as your long range fire and forget punch while concentrating on aiming with other weapons.

I think that holding the reticle on your target should give you an decrease in missiles spread through at least rewarding thoe who do so, or giving more reason for the boats to make this their primary damage dealer.

As much as it screams lack of skill, at least it gives the weapon a better niche beyond the absolute boats and you still need all the skills to get the lock, determine the best times to fire, position yourself etc which are not going to change.

I think the mechanics as they are simply cause more issues than they solve.

I can see the appeal of what you're getting at, but there's a fundamental flaw with this reasoning.

Suppression as a combat term (http://en.wikipedia....uppressive_fire) I'd say it's accurately defined here as "fire that degrades the performance of an enemy force." Most commonly, as you describe, this is done by shooting in the direction of a target, with the intention of forcing it to take cover. This is a tool to prevent maneuvering and return fire.

So here's the problem, doing the amount of damage that LRMs do now, why would a player want to take cover from anything but an overwhelming number of them? I've already describe this in other terms above, but the means of suppression fire in real life is through the use of highly lethal weapons. While the goal of suppression fire is not necessarily to kill the target, the potential lethality of the attack is what motivates your enemy to be suppressed.

The most obvious solution, as it parallels real life, is what most LRM players are asking for: increased LRM damage. Admittedly, this is not the only solution, but none of the arguments against buffing LRM damage have provided an alternative.

Edited by Shalune, 03 June 2013 - 08:59 PM.

[Asmudius Heng]

Having LRMs do cockpit shake is a good way, they had that in before but people didnt like it i think more because damage was so high as well.

However that idea of suppression is a side point, the main point is about fire and forget so you are free to target other weapons better and boats can increase their damage output by holding the lock.

I would also like to see the missile warning removed so people didnt know if they were being targeted. When people feel hit from god knows where, or see a flight of missiles coming in their general direction they will take cover even if not aimed at them. This is a form of chaos and suppression without changing damage numbers.

Sephlock, on 03 June 2013 - 08:58 PM, said:

"As awesome and fun as fire and forget missiles would be" you mean.

Fun is relative

I wouldn't mind it at all .. but I am conscious that it should not be easy mode for people to use. And if it was easy mode then developers have a tendency to nerf it so hard it is worthless.

Fire and forget with a way to make good players and bad players have vastly different outcomes is the aim. If so there is a level of skill and ability that adds depth to the game. And hopfully a mechanic that allows LRMs to be useful in more than one way,

[Volthorne]

I think the biggest buff you could currently provide to LRMs would be removal of that ********* warning. Honestly, that's done more harm than good ever since it was implemented. I'd be fine if AMS users kept it though, considering it IS the job of the AMS to keep users from taking missile damage. But only as long as it has ammo.

Edited by Volthorne, 03 June 2013 - 10:07 PM.

[Aim64C]

Asmudius Heng, on 03 June 2013 - 09:38 PM, said:

Having LRMs do cockpit shake is a good way, they had that in before but people didnt like it i think more because damage was so high as well.

I could live without it, honestly. It would really only be a major deal for the targets of people who put 20 round launchers and put them in 5 tube mounts (or whatever sillyness they come up with). Then you've got a string of annoyance spread out over a second and a half - or whatever their volley rate ends up being.

Quote

However that idea of suppression is a side point, the main point is about fire and forget so you are free to target other weapons better and boats can increase their damage output by holding the lock.

I'm not for this at all outside of making it the ability of a Narc beacon for any missiles fired while targetting it. Giving SRMs some homing ability as well with it would make the Narc a very effective tool to have as a light. You can narc a target and your multi SRM-6 packing buddy running with you can get a good slam in on him (though that might need to be a realtively limited home.... I can just see the forum rage from people getting ninjaed from behind by that tactic).

Or you could narc a guy and make every person with LRMs on your team very willing to contribute a salvo or two to his destruction.

Quote

I would also like to see the missile warning removed so people didnt know if they were being targeted. When people feel hit from god knows where, or see a flight of missiles coming in their general direction they will take cover even if not aimed at them. This is a form of chaos and suppression without changing damage numbers.

Christ, you're one brutal dude.

I'd actually support an incoming missile warning to be issued to mechs within the general vicinity of the targetted mech. Add a little bit of ambiguity to who is being targetted.

That would actually drive the fear factor home a little more if LRMs were more than a sand-blaster.

Quote

Fun is relative

I wouldn't mind it at all .. but I am conscious that it should not be easy mode for people to use. And if it was easy mode then developers have a tendency to nerf it so hard it is worthless.

Fire and forget with a way to make good players and bad players have vastly different outcomes is the aim. If so there is a level of skill and ability that adds depth to the game. And hopfully a mechanic that allows LRMs to be useful in more than one way,

The current lock on mechanic is fine.

Making missiles completely fire-and-forget would really kind of ruin the experience and the addtional consideration of "I have to consider... not only will I be able to hit this guy... but will I be able to keep a lock on him for the amount of time necessary without killing myself?"

[Asmudius Heng]

Aim64C, on 03 June 2013 - 11:16 PM, said:

I could live without it, honestly. It would really only be a major deal for the targets of people who put 20 round launchers and put them in 5 tube mounts (or whatever sillyness they come up with). Then you've got a string of annoyance spread out over a second and a half - or whatever their volley rate ends up being.

Agree somewhat. Did not mean to say this was a good solution but it was a way of providing supression.

Quote

I'm not for this at all outside of making it the ability of a Narc beacon for any missiles fired while targetting it. Giving SRMs some homing ability as well with it would make the Narc a very effective tool to have as a light. You can narc a target and your multi SRM-6 packing buddy running with you can get a good slam in on him (though that might need to be a realtively limited home.... I can just see the forum rage from people getting ninjaed from behind by that tactic).

Or you could narc a guy and make every person with LRMs on your team very willing to contribute a salvo or two to his destruction.

Fire and forget is more a way to make LRMs viable without being an LRM boat. The targeting mechanic of LRMs makes it sub optimal to use with any other weapons apart from very short range weapons when people are in your minimal range. While swapping between weapon mechanics is bad for all weapons it is particularly annoying with LRMs so people don't use them or boat the hell out of them.

I should add the caveat that LRMs should not be massively damaging if you do this or they do become easy mode kill buttons. The sandblaster effect if you will. However they might need to buff ammo as well ...

Quote

Christ, you're one brutal dude.

Thank you

Quote

I'd actually support an incoming missile warning to be issued to mechs within the general vicinity of the targetted mech. Add a little bit of ambiguity to who is being targetted.

That would actually drive the fear factor home a little more if LRMs were more than a sand-blaster.

Not a bad option either - just a way of making people feel in danger without relying solely on stupid damage output. The not knowing if you will be struck but knowing it might be coming makes people bug out and panic - that is a good thing for suppression.

Quote

The current lock on mechanic is fine.

Making missiles completely fire-and-forget would really kind of ruin the experience and the addtional consideration of "I have to consider... not only will I be able to hit this guy... but will I be able to keep a lock on him for the amount of time necessary without killing myself?"

As i said just before, this is about making smaller packs and single packs more viable. It helps non boats make use of LRMs and provides a tactical option when fighting. Get a long range lock and fire then go back to another target for instance. It could break with boats, but quite frankly boats always break the game - at least boats have a minimum range to exploit.

I think i mentioned ... may in another thread? Anyway the way to make people follow the current mechanic would be to tighten the missile spread if they hold lock and make it worse when firing and forgetting. So you create a dual system of fire and forget easy to shoot but damage results may vary. Or follow the target in for greater hits with missiles. Skilled players will be able to follow the shot in and cause greater damage while using thier other weapons, but newbies will still get the benefit of using LRMs and other weapons without being overly punished for it. Boats would need to decide if they want to expose them-self to fire to hold lock or fire then duck back with less damage.

[Aim64C]

Asmudius Heng, on 03 June 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

Agree somewhat. Did not mean to say this was a good solution but it was a way of providing supression.

I just like to pick my battles. LRMs that can be used to actually do something more than remove paint are far higher on the priority list for me to even consider taking up that argument.

Quote

Fire and forget is more a way to make LRMs viable without being an LRM boat. The targeting mechanic of LRMs makes it sub optimal to use with any other weapons apart from very short range weapons when people are in your minimal range. While swapping between weapon mechanics is bad for all weapons it is particularly annoying with LRMs so people don't use them or boat the hell out of them.

I tend to think of balanced mechs along the line of "defense in depth."

In these mechs - you are actually using those single packs of LRMs to 'soften' up a target (as opposed to a fire support mech who is supposed to 'crack' opponents). It may not be much - but over the course of closing - you're shifting the odds in your favor until you enter your next effective weapon range. Then you either close (if your best damage output is at close quarters) or you hold that range and can still usually add your LRMs in every now and then (but they're not your bread and butter).

In that sense - the lock-on mechanic is just fine. You're binding yourself to one target a little more - but once you get into the mincer - you're better off letting the fire support pilot (assuming he's competent) handle the fire support role.

It's more of a transitionary weapon in that sense - what you use 'between' your primary engagements and leading into your next... or just as a damage supplement when it's opportune.

Quote

I should add the caveat that LRMs should not be massively damaging if you do this or they do become easy mode kill buttons. The sandblaster effect if you will. However they might need to buff ammo as well ...

We'll see how the patch affects them.

I think they need a slight damage increase... going lower for other balance concerns just destroys the dedicated fire support role as you can't do anything to actually support your team (aside from chip paint). When you put six volleys of 40 missiles into a jeagermech (you watch them fly from you to the target and kersplode) ... and it still has armor and intact arms in place... something is seriously not right.

I'd say that your minimum damage should be that a 40-round salvo can 'bust' your average heavy mech in 3 salvos - that means strip its armor for whatever mech you are supporting. It may not be all the armor, or just the armor off of one side of the target - but it needs to be able to actually assist your allies in downing/surviving a hostile.

Unless we radically change flight times - in which case, you might be able to get away with 4 salvos.

Quote

I think i mentioned ... may in another thread? Anyway the way to make people follow the current mechanic would be to tighten the missile spread if they hold lock and make it worse when firing and forgetting. So you create a dual system of fire and forget easy to shoot but damage results may vary. Or follow the target in for greater hits with missiles. Skilled players will be able to follow the shot in and cause greater damage while using thier other weapons, but newbies will still get the benefit of using LRMs and other weapons without being overly punished for it. Boats would need to decide if they want to expose them-self to fire to hold lock or fire then duck back with less damage.

The challenge here is pretty simple... if the missiles are substantially less accurate... what makes them worth firing in fire-and-forget mode for a mech that has only 10 tubes?

If they are able to maintain LOS, anyway - why can't they maintain a lock, now?

[Aim64C]

My thoughts after the patch?

I don't know, really.

I recorded my first four runs. First map on Caustic... we got rolled HARD. One map on tourmaline - they seem to be hitting 'okay' on a cataphract and a jeager... yet my end-of-match damage was under 300. River City was kind of a 'meh' deal, and displayed why I need to care a little bit more about where my feet are pointed, sometimes. My last run on caustic, however, seemed spotty. I was granted over 400 damage at the end - but it didn't seem like 400 damage was actually done.

http://youtu.be/fp3YSR2z56Q

We got rolled HARD on that one. Not my best decision making - but the match was likely an inescapable loss on the whole.

http://youtu.be/CYqFBEUD4SQ

This was sniperville, and I didn't much like it.

http://youtu.be/vDNg77rvXmo

This is what happens when I stop caring about my piloting. Thankfully, my team was able to compensate.

http://youtu.be/ho37ao8eKTI

The description is more lengthy here - this is a very good example of the tactical and strategic role of the fire support chassis - and shows why timely delivery of effective damage is essential to team survival. Whether or not I made the right/wrong calls - it shows the need and importance of the role. Probably -THE- video from my drops, today.

[Thundercles]

I might be imagining it, but it sure feels like you get a lot more screen-shake from incoming LRMs now. Had a jenner chasing me around and spotting for some lrm boats and I could barely return fire because all I could see was motion blur and smoke. Then again, it might not have changed in a while, I haven't had that many missiles coming in a steady stream since the pre-poptart lurmocalypse.

[madMAx666]

Please refrain from using
UMG Content

-> nobody outside the US can watch your videos.

[HiplyRustic]

Ningyo, on 03 June 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

Well its not that the missiles spread differently we were talking about maintaining the same target for 3-4 volleys (you do sometimes but less often (I think mostly due to your faster movement speed as you rush around the battlefield)

As to the coring in 3-4 volleys I do have this happen alot, on the other hand yesterday I had a perfect view of a slowly moving Misery (slow even for that mech might have been going 15 kph) at maybe 250-350 range, and fired SIX volleys of 70 missiles into it 420 missiles. On screen they all or near all hit (massive explosions on top of it none on ground around it). It barely turned yellow and at end of match I had a total of 110 damage (I had fired salvos that retained target till hit at least 4 other times on other mechs too, and got at least 12-15 damage with my medium laser before I died.

So yes I have seen that issue occurring like you are.

This has been my experience today, with an LRM50 cat (2 20s, 2 5s). Looked like I was just obliterated targets only to wind up with 78 damage at the end.

UPDATE: Ran several more with an LRM 70/artemis stalker, best was 300-ish with 2 kills...but it's still looking like I'm hitting a lot more than is registering.

Edited by HiplyRustic, 05 June 2013 - 04:43 AM.

[Aim64C]

The most important video capture I've taken:

http://mwomercs.com/...o-confirmation/



The critical point to start watching is about 9:20.

The original capture AVI for this file is 38.3 gigabytes by the way... 1080p at 60 frames. The conversion software I have didn't want to do 1080 in a format I knew would work with Youtube... but the detail is sufficient even at 480.

[Aim64C]

Have the following:







And the fourth one I've already linked to:



In the first (fifth) drop, I take a good face-full of LRM salvos that did the type of damage I was expecting.

I've uploaded these mostly for completion - there weren't many times (other than those already mentioned) where I noticed inconsistent behavior.