50 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

Eleshod, on 03 June 2013 - 12:05 AM, said:

You DO know he said there was NO AMS involved right?


"There was no AMS, no buildings in the way, nothing to diminish the damage done."

There was probably a building in the way then. [/ShortAttentionSpa

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 03 June 2013 - 05:18 AM.

[stjobe]

MustrumRidcully, on 03 June 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

[/ShortAttentionSpa

Well played

[Kitane]

Kmieciu, on 03 June 2013 - 02:49 AM, said:

Streaks are currently the only missiles worth using. Sad but true.

That's why they are scheduled to be "fixed" in the patch tomorrow, right?

Edited by Kitane, 03 June 2013 - 05:34 AM.

[OneEyed Jack]

Ningyo, on 02 June 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

When you are inside a enemy ECM bubble, but using TAG to target an enemy outside the bubble it still cannot be targeted (BIG problem, likely easy to fix)

When you're inside an enemy ECM bubble, you're not supposed to be able to lock on, TAG or not. This is WAI. TAG cuts through a bubble the target is in. Active enemy ECM bubbles around the shooter prevents locks entirely.

Roland, on 03 June 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

I don't think he really is capable of knowing whether or not the enemy had AMS.

I don't think you're capable of realizing that:

• Missiles being shot down can be seen to explode in the air.
  
• AMS has both auditory and visual components, and can be seen shooting at the missiles.
  
• Target Info includes loadout, and shows AMS, if present.

Seriously, dude. I'm beginning to wonder if you've ever actually played this game.

[Ningyo]

Actually TAG is a Laser guidance that is totally unaffected by ECM, so no being in the bubble should still have no affect on it.

Added NARC retaining target on shutdown mechs to my previous post. Since it is giving out its own signal, the shutdown should have absolutely no affect. (I think TAG should do this too, or at least the missiles should home to where the tag is painting a target (think they might do this though so not certain if this needs changed))

[OneEyed Jack]

Ningyo, on 03 June 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

Actually TAG is a Laser guidance that is totally unaffected by ECM, so no being in the bubble should still have no affect on it.

That's arguing the sense of it, which is completely separate from the design and intended function. The intention is that it's blocked. Since it's intended, there's nothing to fix.

And if you want to apply "real world logic" to it, the TAG would allow you to achieve a lock. You are correct. However, the jamming signal of the ECM would prevent you from transmitting targeting data to missiles in flight, so they would lose tracking ability.

All of that is moot because this is a sci-fi game. It works the way they say it works, and for no more reason than because they said it works that way.

[Aim64C]

Roland, on 03 June 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

I don't think he really is capable of knowing whether or not the enemy had AMS.

I'm pretty sure that my explanation is the correct one... that AMS shot down his missiles.

Appogee, on 03 June 2013 - 05:04 AM, said:

Why do you want or expect a Commando with 2xLRM5s to achieve anything much at all vs a static Jenner?

I don't understand the premise for this experiment. It's like researching how many hammer blows are needed to make a reverse-threaded wood screw penetrate steel plate.

To both of you:

http://www.youtube.c...oemOPUUQ#t=195s

I suppose some mythological 6-pack AMS batteries shot down all of my missiles?

Or... let's say that Jeager was just kind of there, standing still, and I had LRM 5s instead of LRM20s, but launched the same number of missiles.

Since they were LRM5s, I should expect them to do less over four volleys than two LRM 20 batteries when AMS isn't a factor?

[Middcore]

I haven't had the opportunity for a "controlled environment" test like the one the original poster describes, but this lines up pretty well with my experience since starting to work on eliting my Catapults as "traditional" LRM boats. It is commonplace for me to have matches where I go through all four tons of my ammo (700+ missiles) and come out of it with, say, 250 damage...at least half of which was done with my "backup" PPC and medium lasers.

Even setting aside all of the factors which can disadvantage LRMs like AMS, ECM, terrain features, lost target lock, etc, it seems like they do well under the 0.9 damage per missile which I believe they are currently officially supposed to.

[Trauglodyte]

The comical thing about all of this is that people are shooting down my data/experience because of the platform on which I tested. If I had been running a Stalker or a Catapult, people would have been fine with it. But that I take a Commando, of which I working on gteting the Light weight class open for when the Flea releases, and it is absolutely and unequivacably false. Jeez people, it was for testing purposes.

Just to add to this, I jumped into a game right after that one and had two straight salvoes miss a legged target. They just up and missed even though I never broke lock. Something is definitely wrong here.

[Aim64C]

Gaslight, on 03 June 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

I haven't had the opportunity for a "controlled environment" test like the one the original poster describes, but this lines up pretty well with my experience since starting to work on eliting my Catapults as "traditional" LRM boats. It is commonplace for me to have matches where I go through all four tons of my ammo (700+ missiles) and come out of it with, say, 250 damage...at least half of which was done with my "backup" PPC and medium lasers.

Even setting aside all of the factors which can disadvantage LRMs like AMS, ECM, terrain features, lost target lock, etc, it seems like they do well under the 0.9 damage per missile which I believe they are currently officially supposed to.

We'll have to see what happens after this next patch that is supposedly going to change missiles.

I have a suspicion that the end-of-match results are showing damage that it my computer -thought- it was doing to targets... and that the server -authorized- as having been done to targets... but never actually got around to applying much of that damage to the targets in game. I usually run very low ping - about 30-50 milliseconds... so I wonder if that is causing it to authorize me damage that is not regularly being applied in the game due to Host State Rewind?

Even then... when the server actually seems to register the kind of damage I am allegedly doing - it seems to be kind of pitiful for the role. Perhaps that will change once we get more consistent behavior out of them... but right now - it's kind of... weird.

[Ningyo]

Good point ECM bubble could stop data being sent to the missiles I did not consider that. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Roland]

OneEyed Jack, on 03 June 2013 - 05:53 AM, said:

I don't think you're capable of realizing that:

• Missiles being shot down can be seen to explode in the air.
  
• AMS has both auditory and visual components, and can be seen shooting at the missiles.
  
• Target Info includes loadout, and shows AMS, if present.

Seriously, dude. I'm beginning to wonder if you've ever actually played this game.

Here are some things you aren't considering:
1) if you aren't inside the min range of LRM's, then that means you're a good distance away from the target. So it's unlikely that you are actually going to see the AMS destroying the missiles. You certainly aren't going to HEAR the AMS activating.
2) Even if you are certain that the mech you are shooting at has no AMS, that doesn't mean AMS isn't destroying your missiles. Any OTHER mechs that are in the area who have AMS are going to shoot down those missiles.

Like I said, dude, AMS ruins LRM5's... that's why I'm thinking that it's almost certainly the cause of the effect the OP is seeing. And sorry, but in an actual game, there's really no way for him to know that AMS wasn't involved.

Aim64C, on 03 June 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

To both of you:

http://www.youtube.c...oemOPUUQ#t=195s

I suppose some mythological 6-pack AMS batteries shot down all of my missiles?

Or... let's say that Jeager was just kind of there, standing still, and I had LRM 5s instead of LRM20s, but launched the same number of missiles.

Since they were LRM5s, I should expect them to do less over four volleys than two LRM 20 batteries when AMS isn't a factor?

I'm not sure what you're trying to show with your video. You fired a bunch of LRM20's and did a bunch of damage, and killed two mechs. Were you expecting to somehow do MORE damage?

And to answer your question there, no, if there is no AMS, then there isn't much difference between 5's and 20's. And actually, even with AMS, if you actually were able to fire the same total number of missiles in a volley (so, in your case, you had 8 LRM 5's to match your 2 20's) then it should be equal in effectiveness against AMS.

One of the reasons that the commando with 2 5's is so ineffective, is just that AMS can shoot down 10 missiles without too much trouble.

[Trauglodyte]

Roland, you are completely daft. My range to target was beyond the 180m and was well under 500m with direct view. It was an AFK jenner that never left the starting location and there were no other mechs around. There was no AMS involved, no ECM involved, nothing that would limit the missiles at all. Why is it so hard for you to accept this?

[Aim64C]

Roland, on 03 June 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

Here are some things you aren't considering:
1) if you aren't inside the min range of LRM's, then that means you're a good distance away from the target. So it's unlikely that you are actually going to see the AMS destroying the missiles. You certainly aren't going to HEAR the AMS activating.
2) Even if you are certain that the mech you are shooting at has no AMS, that doesn't mean AMS isn't destroying your missiles. Any OTHER mechs that are in the area who have AMS are going to shoot down those missiles.

Quote

Like I said, dude, AMS ruins LRM5's... that's why I'm thinking that it's almost certainly the cause of the effect the OP is seeing. And sorry, but in an actual game, there's really no way for him to know that AMS wasn't involved.

Quote

I'm not sure what you're trying to show with your video. You fired a bunch of LRM20's and did a bunch of damage, and killed two mechs. Were you expecting to somehow do MORE damage?

Now it figures why you don't think people can know if AMS is a factor.

There's a thing called perhipheral vision - you use it to keep track of this information display system - called a "Heads Up Display System" or "HUD" for short.

You see - in the bottom left-hand corner is this little indicator that shows how much armor and internal health (or, rather, damage) you have (taken). In the top right hand corner is this thing that shows how much damage a targetted mech has taken. You get this information by, in this game, pressing the "R" button.

Now that we are through covering these revelations - you'll notice that when damage is done to a targetted mech, it is represented on the "paper doll."

Notice - as swarms of missiles impact the target from myself and other players - the armor turns from a light butter-cup yellow color to a sort of pale orange color - despite the fact that he's been hit with roughly 100-120 missiles (depending upon the swarm size of the other player).

Now - perhaps the damage at the end of the game is "correct" to what I -should- have been applying. However - look at the damage that was actually applied to the mechs I shot - and tell me that was (if I remember correctly) roughly 400 points worth of damage that those mechs received in the game.

For God's sake - I fired 3 volleys of ALRM 40s at roughly 300 meters with line-of-sight into a Jeagermech with yellow internals before I "got the kill." I rained like 5 volleys onto a heavily damaged Catapult before I "got the kill" (and since I couldn't see my team mate who was providing the lock - it was difficult to tell how much damage was actually from me). The dude overheated, took a full volley standing still (with damage to his internals at that time), and powered back up.

Who cares if you can deal 800 points of damage in a match if you can't actually do anything to assist your team because it takes you 30 seconds of continuous "support" to amount to a couple of dakka-dakkas from an AC10?

Quote

And to answer your question there, no, if there is no AMS, then there isn't much difference between 5's and 20's. And actually, even with AMS, if you actually were able to fire the same total number of missiles in a volley (so, in your case, you had 8 LRM 5's to match your 2 20's) then it should be equal in effectiveness against AMS.

Ah, so then there's no basis for: "Well, you were shooting LRM5s - there's your problem."

Quote

One of the reasons that the commando with 2 5's is so ineffective, is just that AMS can shoot down 10 missiles without too much trouble.

AMS is very effective against missiles, these days (a battery of three of them were shredding my 40 missile salvos down to a trickle of, maybe, 10 on a river city map).

That said - I always know when AMS is in effect. Why? I can see these things called "tracers." You can, also, often here this rattling noise that indicates something is going on. Even more oddly enough - my missiles start to explode in flight (if I didn't notice the tracers because I'm scope-locked on my volley of missiles).

It's crazy what happens when you, you know, pay attention.

That's critical for any LRM player to learn how to do. Sure - it's nice when your reticule turns red to indicate that your weapons did damage - but with missiles - this will trigger if only one missile hits the enemy and the rest hit a cliff. If you don't watch that paper doll - you don't know if your strikes are actually being effective, or not.

Arguably - I pay too much attention to my instruments, allies and targets, sometimes, and not enough attention to where I'm charging at 80 kph.

[Roland]

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Who cares if you can deal 800 points of damage in a match if you can't actually do anything to assist your team because it takes you 30 seconds of continuous "support" to amount to a couple of dakka-dakkas from an AC10?

Well,that's the thing with LRM's. You aren't aiming them. They're not hitting a specific section, and thus they are essentially not getting the benefit that all aimed weapons get from being in MWO as opposed to TT. Your missiles are hitting random locations.

It's a tradeoff from you not having to aim them.

Quote

Ah, so then there's no basis for: "Well, you were shooting LRM5s - there's your problem."

The problem was that he was only firing two LRM5's, on a commando. This is such a small number of missiles that it can't really saturate an AMS system like multiple LRM 20's can.

The key point is that until you are firing more missiles than AMS can destroy, then you aren't going to do ANY damage. It's not that AMS destroys X% of all incoming missiles.. it's that AMS destroys the FIRST X missiles.. so if you only fire X missiles, then it's the same as not firing any at all.

Quote

That said - I always know when AMS is in effect. Why? I can see these things called "tracers." You can, also, often here this rattling noise that indicates something is going on. Even more oddly enough - my missiles start to explode in flight (if I didn't notice the tracers because I'm scope-locked on my volley of missiles).

No man, if you're running around at 150 kph, you're really not likely to be seeing the tracers from enemy AMS.

This isn't to say that you will NEVER notice the effect, but it's definitely not the case that simply because you didn't see it, that it wasn't happening.

The reality is that LRM 5's are such a small number of missiles, that if anyone between him and his target had AMS, it'd wipe out most of the salvo... and result in the negligible damage that he got.

[Trauglodyte]

Roland, on 03 June 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

The problem was that he was only firing two LRM5's, on a commando. This is such a small number of missiles that it can't really saturate an AMS system like multiple LRM 20's can.

The key point is that until you are firing more missiles than AMS can destroy, then you aren't going to do ANY damage. It's not that AMS destroys X% of all incoming missiles.. it's that AMS destroys the FIRST X missiles.. so if you only fire X missiles, then it's the same as not firing any at all.



No man, if you're running around at 150 kph, you're really not likely to be seeing the tracers from enemy AMS.

This isn't to say that you will NEVER notice the effect, but it's definitely not the case that simply because you didn't see it, that it wasn't happening.

The reality is that LRM 5's are such a small number of missiles, that if anyone between him and his target had AMS, it'd wipe out most of the salvo... and result in the negligible damage that he got.

I'm going to explain this ONE MORE TIME because something is either getting lost in translation, you just aren't grasping what I'm saying, or you're refusing to understand what I'm saying:

• Game started in Frozen City and everyone ran to the crash
  
• My team started in on them and they returned
  
• Instead of going around to the tail end of the map to run around where they were concentrated, I instead took the cave
  
• By the time I exited the cave, the score was 5 kills (our side), 1 kill (their side) giving us 7 players alive to their 3
  
• At that point, I noticed an AFK jenner at the starting point with NO mechs in siight (the other 2 were engaging my team as seen on the mini-map)
  
• I opened up with dual LRM5s and unloaded 340 missiles on the AFK Jenner; a received a Spotting XP bonus for the LRM damage that the Stalker LRM boat added by way of 2-3 salvoes of LRM15x2 + LRM10x2
  
• Roughly 30s after I killed the Jenner, their last mech fell at the crash (I moved to help).
  
• The only weapon that I fired and the only mech that I fired at was the dual LRM5s AT the afk Jenner which did not have AMS on it and I tallied 87 damage.

SO, again, I wasn't running around at 150kph, I was standing still. I wasn't having my LRM5s intercepted by the Jenner's AMS (didn't have it) or anyone else's AMS (no mechs were around) and only two others were still functioning when I started combat. No missiles impacted a building because I had a clear line of fire between me and the target AND I had the higher ground which would help to clear any terrain inbetween (there was none). 34 salvoes fired, 34 salvoes landed, 87 damage done equating to 0.2558823~ damage per missile.

[Deathlike]

Let's just hope missile HSR corrects this disaster. I'm starting to think the hotfix may have added part of the missile-HSR in progress changes, thus nerfing LRMs much more than the "removal" of splash damage.

[Roland]

Was the Jenner disconnected? You say that he was AFK, but if he had no AMS then normally he wouldn't be surviving even JUST the volleys that you say the stalker was firing at him.

If he was disconnected, then all bets are kind of off, since tons of strange things happen with dropping damage against targets who have disconned.

I appologize though, as I clearly did not understand that you were firing at a stationary target, and that was the only guy you were shooting. I thought that you were describing your overall usage of LRM5's in a normal fight, and I know that AMS will destroy LRM5's easily, which is why I pointed out that as the easiest explanation of what you saw.

However, given your most recent explanation, I'd attribute it more to disconnection weirdness, rather than any particular aspect of LRM5's.

[Appogee]

I wonder if it's something to do with the fact that the Jenner was dc?

I've seen a couple of weird things lately with dcs.

[Roland]

To be clear, based on my own usage of missiles recently, and footage posted in this very thread by folks like C64, it's obvious that the damage numbers you encountered there are definitely NOT the normal damage levels for LRM's.