27 replies to this topic

[Sir Trent Howell]

The nerf to Jump Jetted snipers harms all JJ units, primarily the Catapult, Spider and Jenner.

A simple solution:
Heat does not dissipate while airborne.
Jump Jets take longer to recharge.


It targets jump snipers (PPC snipers since we have no Gauss Snipers) without disabling other chassis that weren't a problem.

Edited by Sir Trent Howell, 04 June 2013 - 08:53 PM.

[Kiiyor]

Sir Trent Howell, on 04 June 2013 - 08:51 PM, said:

the

... rain in spain stays mostly on the plain.

Light mechs could probably do with less shake, or perhaps have the number of JJ's decrease the shake somewhat, but everything else is fine. Awesomely fine. Fighting is actually varied now, as opposed to the cowering behind rocks meta of yore.

Edit: ah, your post makes more sense now that it's more than one word.

The issue with JJs was the ability for poptarts to place extremely accurate pinpoint damage with little exposure to return fire. You could increase jump time exponentially, or penalize heat, but it would not really change this - it would just mean poptarters would need to wait a few extra seconds between tarts.

Edited by Kiiyor, 04 June 2013 - 09:03 PM.

[One Medic Army]

As a Jenner pilot I'd rather have my heat going down and faster jet recharge.

[William Mountbank]

Yesh, I guess increasing jump recharge time would solve the problem without impacting Spiders. It's not like they even really use their JJs anyway!

[Dr Q]

Played first game in a few weeks today. Tried to fly over a stalker and shoot down on it as I flew over in my jenner...
Both banks of lasers fired on either side.
REALLY?
Sure, thanks for getting rid of the obnoxious jump-snipe meta. But this just completely destroyed an element of light gameplay...
No, really, I didn't need to fire while JJ-ing to get an advantage over skill-less streak users before i lost to the enrage timer....
Wait a few more weeks, HO!

[Profiteer]

I think increasing the JJ recharge time and removing the "random shot" factor would make it about right.

"Random shot" hurts all jump jet mechs to the point of making them... well, pointless.


The shaking recticule alone makes it near impossible to lay down any sort of accurate long range fire, which is what most people were bitching about. Removing "random shot" would allow lights to fire close in while jumping, which I don't think is in any way OP.

Edited by Profiteer, 04 June 2013 - 10:47 PM.

[mike29tw]

JJ recharge rate depends on the weight class of the JJ.

Cockpit shake really isn't necessarily IMO.

[Asmudius Heng]

Didnt they say they were lessening the shake the lighter the mech is?

That might be more helpful and allow better brawl jumpers.

[blinkin]

i pilot jenners and catapults primarily. i played both today with jump jets, and i don't really feel like i got nerfed in any significant way.

the SRM on my catapult seemed pretty limp, but i had no problem connecting shots, and i was able to hit with the ERPPC on my jenner reliably WHILE using jump jets.

[Blackfang]

The screen and reticle shake to JJing hasnt really caused me much grief at all, I regularly play a spider or a jenner and I'm doing the same damage if not more now than I was before. I really like the changes they've made, messed up the meta a little so we see a more varied battlefield.

[PEEFsmash]

Kiiyor, on 04 June 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

The issue with JJs was the ability for poptarts to place extremely accurate pinpoint damage...

God damnit....why can't people accept that being good at aiming is not something to be cursed, but is just fine.

This game would be fixed if brawlers were stronger. Buff SRM damage, and leave this JJ crap alone. The fact that every change in this game turns out to be a light nerf is really really frustrating.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 04 June 2013 - 11:05 PM.

[James Warren]

Dr Q, on 04 June 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

Played first game in a few weeks today. Tried to fly over a stalker and shoot down on it as I flew over in my jenner...
Both banks of lasers fired on either side.
REALLY?
Sure, thanks for getting rid of the obnoxious jump-snipe meta. But this just completely destroyed an element of light gameplay...
No, really, I didn't need to fire while JJ-ing to get an advantage over skill-less streak users before i lost to the enrage timer....
Wait a few more weeks, HO!

I have this exact same problem.

Honestly, this is the very first time I've felt the need to immediately log into the forums to share my voice after a change to the game. I dislike the jump-sniping/high alpha metagame as much as the next person, but the jump jet shake had essentially killed the Spider for me. I really loved being able to perform aerobatic attacks on enemies, and now every time I jump I want to throw up. It actually makes me feel sick to look at the shake - not to mention I can't hit a target with medium lasers at even 200m range.

I'm not the type to say something like this lightly, and I do appreciate the fairly timely implementation of this feature, however I feel like the jump-jet shake is a half-baked idea which causes more problems than it solves.

[Profiteer]

PEEFsmash, on 04 June 2013 - 11:05 PM, said:

[/size]

God damnit....why can't people accept that being good at aiming is not something to be cursed, but is just fine.

This game would be fixed if brawlers were stronger. Buff SRM damage, and leave this JJ crap alone. The fact that every change in this game turns out to be a light nerf is really really frustrating.

Agreed.

I hope all the Jump-sniping complainers like PPC boating stalkers instead, because that's the new meta.

[Demuder]

If we accept that poptarts weren't supposed to fire their weapons precisely while JJing, what exactly makes light mechs supposed to be able either ?

I mean JJs were meant to be a maneuverability device, nothing more, nothing less. The shake doesn't affect that. In fact, the added bonus that you can fire while gliding down, is still there. So why the whine ?

Btw, I can still shoot my medium lasers just fine and on target with my Trebuchet while JJing - albeit not spot on - while brawling. I suppose the gripe light pilots have is that they can't snipe with their ERPPC Spider or with their Jenner at the 400m range.

[Kiiyor]

PEEFsmash, on 04 June 2013 - 11:05 PM, said:

[/size]

God damnit....why can't people accept that being good at aiming is not something to be cursed, but is just fine.

This game would be fixed if brawlers were stronger. Buff SRM damage, and leave this JJ crap alone. The fact that every change in this game turns out to be a light nerf is really really frustrating.

Then they should fix it for lights, and I totally endorse that.

Brawling against poptarts though? You still have to trudge through a withering amount of pinpoint damage to get in range. And while you're trudging, they can relocate and still ruin your day. They can strike from behind cover anywhere, whilst you have to throw ineffectuall spatterings of missiles and dakka at ghosts. Then, if you do get in range to unleash the fabulous power of your SRM's, they still have perfectly functioning, high damage weapon systems of their own, and are in far better condition to use them.

A poptart was a sniper, brawler, area denial system and scout all rolled into one. They were the kings of the battlefield. Now not so much, and that is good.

[Voidcrafter]

I can't recall when the taking multiple shots in mid air without overheating was an issue?
Being able to take a single shot without overheat is, was and will ever be, having in mind that you KNOW VERY WELL that the shot would land where you aim, even if you're 1000m away.
It's currently fixed.

I've never seen a poptart overheat after the first shot - it just falls behind the obstacle/building/rock/etc. and waits till it heat gets to a level, when it can fire again.
I'm so happy that jump sniper war ended, and I still don't get people like you who fail to see the issue while it was happening

[William Mountbank]

The problem is that light mechs use JJs during brawling, and light mechs are only effective when targeting specific areas of the enemy mech - because damage output is so low light mechs have to compensate with increased accuracy.
It's a gameplay issue, not a realism or TT accuracy thing.

Our gripe is that we can't hit the CT on the Treb that we're jumping right over any more. Sniping is still fine because that's done best at range standing near cover, JJs not necessary.

And how are JJs really useful for manoeuvrability? There are no places JJing gives you any real tactical movement advantage on these maps, not in the TT sense you mean. That only comes from engine size and speed.

[Voidcrafter]

Haven't played with light yet, but I remember something that the DEVs said, that they'll gonna "adjust" the shake state based on the weight of your mech - so either way it's for the best or so I see.

So much time I felt near useless, now when people(well... except the silly PPC stalkers) are on the ground again I'm feeling the way that I should - it's vengeance time.
It's about time those people get used to using cheesy builds to know their place and how's in the higher brackets without using broken game mechanics.
I promise - I'll make sure of that

[blinkin]

William Mountbank, on 05 June 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

The problem is that light mechs use JJs during brawling, and light mechs are only effective when targeting specific areas of the enemy mech - because damage output is so low light mechs have to compensate with increased accuracy.
It's a gameplay issue, not a realism or TT accuracy thing.

Our gripe is that we can't hit the CT on the Treb that we're jumping right over any more. Sniping is still fine because that's done best at range standing near cover, JJs not necessary.

And how are JJs really useful for manoeuvrability? There are no places JJing gives you any real tactical movement advantage on these maps, not in the TT sense you mean. That only comes from engine size and speed.

i was nailing the CT on a jager today on the slope that comes down the western cliff face of frozen. i had his CT in the red with the ERPPC on my jenner (i think i died because a K2 came up behind me and nailed me before i could land the finishing blow). it was hard but the rest of his armor segments were still in tact so even while i was jumping up and down the slope i was able to land shots with a reasonable degree of precision.

And how are JJs really useful for manoeuvrability? There are no places JJing gives you any real tactical movement advantage on these maps, not in the TT sense you mean. That only comes from engine size and speed.
^^
this right here is just priceless. this one little statement right here tells me that you never understood jump jets. i will just quote a response i gave to this exact same ignorance before:

blinkin, on 27 May 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

my catapult C4 with 4xSRM6 disagrees. JJ are an integral part of my movement. i go 86kph, but i can keep pace with mechs that go 150kph because jump jets allow me to hop over obstacles.

JJ also allow you to leap over an assault mech, turn around in mid air, fire a volley into his back, and run past him on the opposite side of his turn. JJ allow you to leap up walls and come at targets from completely unexpected directions. JJ allow you to hop over a building and immediately escape ALL fire from nearby enemies that were destroying you. JJ allow you to run straight at and leap over an otherwise un-passable target (like an assault mech in the side entrance of the ice cave on frozen, or a pair of mechs blocking one of the roads in river city). JJ allow you to attack targets from angles that are too high for them to aim at. JJ allow you to turn 180 degrees in your mech without ever needing to even slow down.

i have done ALL of these things with my 65 ton catapult C4.

jump jets are 90% of the reason why my catapult C4 has always been a ruthless predator, regardless of all of the SRM nerfs and buffs (the short time when they were little more than hover jets was awful and hurt the hello kitty far more than any nerf to weapons that came before or after).

your statement displays a severe lack of tactical understanding and imagination.

[William Mountbank]

blinkin, on 05 June 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

And how are JJs really useful for manoeuvrability? There are no places JJing gives you any real tactical movement advantage on these maps, not in the TT sense you mean. That only comes from engine size and speed.
^^
this right here is just priceless. this one little statement right here tells me that you never understood jump jets. i will just quote a response i gave to this exact same ignorance before:

You're reply is right, there are advantages to brawling with JJs, and all those things you list I agree with and employ. Which is why screen jitter hits lights as badly as poptarters, because it reduces short range accuracy also, which is so important when your mech has a total dps of say, 2.5.

I was more referring to getting from point A to point C without people in point B knowing. This is the TT usage of JJs afaik, but it is not important in MWO.

So in reply:
There are no places JJing gives you any real tactical movement advantage on these maps, not in the TT sense you mean. That only comes from engine size and speed

_{edit: you're to your}

Edited by William Mountbank, 05 June 2013 - 12:58 AM.